Take a look please.

[Australis]

Cris,


"When reptiles are subjected to freezing temperatures, extracellular fluids begin to form ice crystals long before the reptile loses consciousness and pain perception. This extracellular freezing creates an osmotic imbalance, drawing water out of cells. The circulation is then impeded which inhibits prevents gas exchange, nutrient uptake, etc. Ice crystals begin to create small punctures in cell walls. For more information on euthanasia, see Stephen L. Barten DVM's article"

Above from below link:
http://www.anapsid.org/iguana/hypothermia.html


You might find the information provided in the below linkshelpful in regards to the use of "hypothermia for anesthesia"

http://dels.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/37_4/37_4Evaluation.shtml

When you think how little is know about treating reptiles its amazing Hoser has become such a expert :roll:
And also a expert on what people get up to i taxis

Matt

 

[imported_Acanthophis]

Cris,
Sorry mate, I shouldn't have used the term "suggesting" This is an article written by a qualified vet with experience in reptiles. He provides evidence and further references on the topic. The evidence is exactly the same as provided by MattQld83.
All the Best,
Chris.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

Just pointing out what his defense will be.

Honestly I don't care 1 way or another whether it is stopped or not.
What somebody else does with his animals in his home has no effect on me so I have no reason to participate in lynching them. I do not know Ray, therefore I do not hate him nor like him. I do however like a good argument hence stirring the pot in this thread. But what I don't like is reading slanderous posts continually. Every 2nd post these days are about so called dirty pet shops, dobbing in some keeper or bagging Ray Hoser & Steve Irwin and I am sick of hearing about it. GET A LIFE!

The fact is the petition was started by people with personal grudges against Ray. And every person that signed also has issues with Ray aside from voids. Like I keep saying if it wasn't venomoids it would be some other matter for you all to bitch about because EVERYBODY LOVES RAY lol

What he does does not effect me in anyway. I don't lose money from it, my family don't suffer from it, I am not homeless because of it, and my animals are not un-healthy because of it. But you lot act as if what he does/says/writes is tearing your life apart haha. And I don't just mean voids.

PS:
Anyway I am obviously not participating in a petty petition that will not make any changes so there is no reason to aim attention at me anymore

I signed this petition and have no personal issue or grudge against the man. I would find it hard to have one as I have never met the man nor had any dealings with him. I find this generalisation a bit ridiculous....

So if anethesia is deemed necessary during surgery & Ray uses this method you will no longer have any problems with Ray or venomoids? I am sure every1 will be happy if Ray uses the right methods to butcher a snake. Or maybe they will start to whinge that it is no longer inhumane but morally wrong & un-ethical in which case the petition hasn't done squat and we will still be reading several hundred slanderous posts about Ray in the future (STANDARD) There is already several long winded posts in this thread regarding the issue with venomoids in general (not just the proceedure endured by the snake) that goes to show the issue is NOT the lack of anethesia but the fact it is done at all.

See the petition is NOT to stop his inhumane treatment on voids but rather to try & stop the practice completely, which will not happen. Therefore Ray will come out the victor in this case

RAY HOSER FOR PM 2007!

 

[Retic]

I agree, this was written by a Vet with a doctorate in veterinary science, what on Earth are they going to know about it ? 7 years of training is hardly going to give them an insight into the effectiveness of an alternative form of anaesthesia. A specially developed anaesthetic or sticking them in a fridge for awhile, mmm, which is best ? It's a close call. So can anyone provide any evidence on the subject ? Maybe something from a bricklayer or stockbroker because a vet is hardly qualified to comment on such a complicated subject.

All the Best,
Chris.

dude im not going to buy something to read an alternative view that is "suggesting" that its not viable, im interested in some evidence or logical theory that says that its not better than practical alternative methods of anaesthesia.[/quote]

 

[Retic]

Very well put Indicus, I can't see how being able to show the general public a venomous snake without venom is in any way going to increase anyone knowledge or understanding of those animals. If it is like most of these shows the majority of what is said to Joe Public goes in one ear and out of the other so all they are seeing is someone holding a big Brown Snake as if it is harmless and in the case of venomoids of course it is harmless. Back in the real world a big Brown Snake of course ISN'T harmless.
It is mutilation and in the case of the way Ray does it mutilation in the most barbaric form.

I should also add that I signed the petition and I have no personal axe to grind with Ray, I have known him for many years from my time in Geelong and always got on well with him but that makes no difference with regard this subject.
Yes we could just turn our backs on anyything to do with animal welfare but I for one don't want to see that happen, there will always be those of us who consider it a fight worth getting involved in.

It's not a matter of Ramond bashing etc; it's the stupid arguements that seem to support the notion that taking an elapid and turning it into a venomiod is a acceptable practice. It might very well be if you didnt appreciate the animal for what it is.....how can one who considers themselves to have a passion for reptiles honestly believe this is of any benefit to the elapid in anyway?. Just the mere concept of taking the venomous abilities away from an animal that has evolved as a specialized hunter over millions of years; is just criminal....eg: Be like taking the wings off an eagle....Arrr, it's fine, it can still eat and hunt; just hops around after it's prey; sounds stupid; because it is. How the hell does turning an elapid into a venomoid serve any benefit to the unfortunate animal in question?; or offer any benefits regarding education?. Am i to assume it's for the benefit of the demonstrators ego?; or is it simply self preservation for somebody who is obviously cannot handle an elapid as is? How does allowing the public to hang an elapid around ones neck, free handle in a casual manner or to that effect, teach one a sense of respect for that animal and it's capabilities.....i think not. I'm not arguing whether it's painfull or not, its just morally unethical and unnecessary if your a competent handler. Yes accidents can happen and do, in any field that has an element of danger associated to it.....thats life. There are those out there that have been handling elapids for a long time without resorting to this type of mutilation. Lastly to address those that believe we as a community of supposed reptile enthusiasts should keep quite and accept this type of practise; and other issues such as filthy Pet shops, dodgy keepers etc etc by not speaking out...... this would be gutless and would be an injustice to reptiles and herpetology alike. Its moral obligation which i feel we must uphold.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

So your argument, Indicus's argument & many others argument IS venomoids on the whole NOT just the anethesia issue? Anethesia has very little to do with it & if he is granted permission to perform the act under anethesia you will remain fighting against it & Ray? So the petition is a far cry from being a justice to enforce humanity in his surgery hey? More of an attempt to eliminate it completely. My point exactly. Regardless of the petty action taken here you are fighting a no win situation and at the end of the day you will still remain to have issues against Ray long after any court proceedings.

Boa, for some1 who is all for mutations & hybrids that also handicap a species in the case of coma's (carpet x woma's) or Chongles/Carpondro's you seem to have a high horse regarding others opinions on the subject of voiding Elapids. Is it not hypocritical to fight for one while fighting against another when both are in a sense morally & un-ethically wrong as well as butchering & handicapping an animal?

So when it goes through court & quickly becomes legal to do so what will the majorities arguments be then? that he is legally breaching a moral code that some part of the community hold? hahaha. Maybe you can explain about having a bird with no wings in future court hearings when making a claim against him for legal acts of un-ethicality against some peoples beliefs. But I am sure he will use Kiwis, emu's & ostriches as an example though and squash yet another case you guys have put against him

 

[indicus]

Of course how any operation on any animal, and how the operation is performed is an issue when considering an animals welfare inregards to pain....however as i have expressed, thats something i cannot comment on, as i'm not the snake.....however as you eluded to; it's the whole venomoid issue of takeing a elapid and turning it into an it?. I find in a joke that someone who is suppose to love/enjoy reptiles take the stance that you have JandC.....to support such practices....what a bloody joke. You then offer watered down similarties between the pain a fish feels when having a hook in its mouth. This isnt about fish or any other issue other then herps and their future wellfare....maybe that arguement is better suited to a fish site....
Another thing to consider is........What happens when this venomoid is passed onto another keeper etc.
eg "mate it's cool, this ones a venomoid".....next thing we have confusion which one is what, and someone is envenomated....Now where talking a safety issue. Dont be so sure that the authorities will take this lightly.....
So i say to you step out of your fish bowl and consider other aspects other then your love for Ray & friends....maybe the uniqueness of our elapids as they are would be enough.

 

[Retic]

:lol: (That smiley was in reference to JandC's post by the way)

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

No I said a hook in its spine used as live bait not in its mouth.
And I DO NOT support Ray or his practises I am simply going against the majority with their constant complaining on every issue I have mentioned. Like I keep saying even after all this is said & done every1 will still remain against Ray and anything he does/says/writes/publishes. As I also said the continual threads about dirty pet shops (most of which have plenty of people verifying that the shop is no where near as bad as the original posters accusations) and posts about dobbing so & so in for keeping an exotic is lame imo. I did not mean to conceal every crime committed, but if it not a big deal why bother turning it into 1? As some1 mentioned if the exotic is being well kept then turn a blind eye who cares. If a pet shop has 1 single dead fish in a tank inform the staff there rather than create a post to bad mouth this persons business and ruin their reputation. I said I can take it or leave it as what this person does to his own animals does not effect me in any way.

Yes I am passionate about MY ANIMALS, I do not shed a tear when I read a post about somebody who's snake has escaped or died because it does not effect the health of my own animals or any part of my family. Why should I be passionate about the entire population? As long as my animals are well cared for that is all that matters to me.

Calling me a Ray & friends lover is a bit childish isn't it?
After all shouldn't whistle blowers stick together? this would then make him your associate not mine.

 

[Retic]

Yep, I'm alright Jack.

 

[indicus]

:roll: ...well is that it?....i think you have proven to me and others your stance on our herps and well being.
well done mate.....turn a blind eye; it doesnt effect ya.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

exactly
Its just a hobby for me. Not my life.
Bit of pocket money, a few pets, the odd social function & friends.

Nothing more & nothing less.
Now does this make me less of a person because I don't share your passion towards the hobby? I own an automobile should I also clean my car twice weekly because other car enthusiasts do?

 

[indicus]

Not a passion towards the hobby; but yes i am passionate when considering our unique reptiles and their well being; but thats me; if thats so wrong, so be it......

 

[Retic]

No it isn't wrong at all. I don't shed a tear if I hear of someones animal dying but I do feel sorry for the loss. If someone asks a question in relation to an animals wellbeing I try to answer for the sake of the animal. It is very easy just to think well it doesn't affect me or mine so who cares.

 

[koubee]

totally agree with JandC.

 

[westhamsc]

man what a topic it's like the days of our lives but more entertaining lol

 

[cris]

Thanks for those links Matt i knew if i kept asking someone would post them, the first link about euthansia i read sometime back but i was recently unable to find it

The next link was informative but not really conclusive, but it does suggest that Rays procedure may not prevent the snakes from feeling all the pain, It would atleast have some effect and would allow for a successful operation. To find the answer research would have to be done on the species Ray voided and if another method of anesthesia is as safe and practical for such an opperation.
So im back where I started just with a bit more knowledge.
It also had a really big word in it "electroencephalographic" :shock:

 

[Nome]

I don't understand what the debate is. The facts are:

1) HE IS NOT A LICENSED VET. You are not allowed to operate on animals if you aren't licensed

2) HE DOESN'T USE ANESTHESIA. He puts the snakes in the fridge first, this is known to immobilite reptiles, make them less active. I would daresay the reason he doesn't use anesthesia is because he's not a licensed vet and probably can't get ahold of anesthesia for reptiles.

3) LICENSED VETS USE PROPER ANESTHESIA. Cris, etc, don't you think if putting reptiles in the fridge was enough to make them feel no pain, that vets would use this method over anesthesia??

4) HE HAS TO HOLD THE ANIMALS DOWN WITH RUBBER BANDS TIED TO A PLANK OF WOOD. If they were completely deadened, couldn't feel pain or move, why would he need to do this??

There would simply be no issue if Hoser was a licensed vet, did the relevant study and experience for a degree, and used the proper anesthesia to operate on the snakes.

Have a look at his site, see the pictures, read his explanation of how he does these operations. He is not using a sterile vet surgery, he is using PLANKS OF WOOD AND RUBBER BANDS to put the snakes on and hold them down with.

J & C, how could his methods ever become legal?? Why would he be allowed to operate unlicensed with no degree on animals?? Imagine the president that would set?

What he does is clearly in breach of the cruelty to animals act in the very least.

 

[Retic]

Absolutely agree 100%.

 

[JandC_Reptiles]

Indicus,
I never said you were or ever implied you were wrong, it was you who bought up the issue of passion towards reptiles and you who figured I was condoning what Ray does. So in reality it was you saying I was wrong yeah? And just like opinions passion varies also.

Nome,
Ray may not partake in the surgery perhaps vets will in the future, who knows maybe he will be allowed to under anethesia I really don't know & really dont particularly care. All I know is it will not stop them like the majority wish. And this petition is not about the lack of anethesia & Ray doing the surgery as such re-read some of the posts from those that have signed, others have clearly suggested even in this thread him being an unlicenced vet & the lack of anethesia is not the only issue they have, they want it stopped completely on the grounds it is un-ethical, un-necessary & un-moral in their opinions (who seem to think their own opinion is valid but nobody elses holds any ground) which I will repeat will not happen, therfore this whole debate arguing slandering slagging mud tossing crap will not end with this petition. We can still expect alot more threads regarding Ray & venomoids regardless of the outcome in the future.

Get it through your thick heads I am not arguing that what he does is right or wrong, I couldn't care less. I am arguing that the morons with nothing better to do than to slag off fellow Herpers won't give it up, not now, not tomorrow, not next week & not after any result of an online petition. I am also informing you that nothing you do will stop venomoids or hybrids so whats the point in arguing & creating posts about them several times a week?

Anyway I am not fighting for the right for Ray to do barbaric surgery and it is not my place to decide if it is right or wrong. I have my own opinion but that is all it is I don't go around trying to persuade an entire group of followers that my opinion is correct and any1 elses is wrong. Go ahead sign some petition formed on the internet but don't sit here arguing with me because I refuse to, telling me how wrong it is etc when I have already read about the BS 10000 times in the past, recently and no doubt will in the future as well. My original comment was to yawn when conversation as usual turned to Ray Hoser. Attention was then directed at me & I have replied with my opinions. I had my say, you have had yours, nothing further to debate is there?

And for the record once again for those that are slow on the uptake, I do not condone what he does & have not once said he was right or should be doing surgery.

Boa
Why not answer my questions?
Do you not feel it is hypocritical of yourself to have an interest in hybrids like coma's (carpet x Woma) that have lost their heat sensing pits which they have evolved to use much like an Elapid has evolved to use venom, YET be against venomoids for the fact that their venom glands are removed? Am I to assume you have more passion towards a purebred species than a cross breed? and if that was the case why are you interested in cross breeds? Sounds very condensending to me, perhaps you can explain your stance?