To cull or not to cull... that is the question...

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Is it you first for sterilization?
You do realise there are better ways... and as I have said all the way through this thread.. and for the fifth time... We continuially change our environment to suit our lifestyles.. It's time we changed our lifestyles to suit our environment....

What ways are there please elaborate?

Changing our life style to suit the environment well I am, as much as I can at this stage anyway but you have to convince a hell of a lot of people before we can start to change anything and im afraid there a lot more of them than there are us, and I mean those that don’t care whether they kill the environment or not. All I can do is my little bit and hope it rubs off on other people around me and if that means culling croc for the good of the population that is croc population so be it.

Moreover, I hoped people would have seen the funny side of human sterilization :lol:
 
Sorry Richard I'm back and I still can't see any answers. Good to see that you have joined the arguement Lucas you might be able to give me some better answers, the politician is ducking around the issue at the moment but that is what they do. Skippy does taste nice and untill I moved to QLD it was a reqular meal. Don't no enough about Croc culls so I won't weigh into that debate. Yes I would agree that the human population has grown out of control and to steal someones signature " We need to add more chlorine to the gene pool." Or a licence program put into place but if you want to steralise you can start in your own area. So give us a little about your back ground Lucas so I can see where you are coming from, and let's get this debate back on track. Practical answers let's have them.
 
What ways are there please elaborate?

Changing our life style to suit the environment well I am, as much as I can at this stage anyway but you have to convince a hell of a lot of people before we can start to change anything and im afraid there a lot more of them than there are us, and I mean those that don’t care whether they kill the environment or not. All I can do is my little bit and hope it rubs off on other people around me and if that means culling croc for the good of the population that is croc population so be it.

Moreover, I hoped people would have seen the funny side of human sterilization :lol:

Well first way - with crocs, is relocation relocation reloction... Assuming you don't relocate them to a large male's territory they should be fine.

Second way - Encourage the reptiles... Because they're so territorial (salty's) then there's on;y one large male and maybe some smaller, less dangerous females who are willing to submit to the male. If this is the case, one male is a tourist attraction in central Cairns or Darwin or wherever... Signs are carefully located and eventually when the food source runs out (namely tourists) the croc moves on... There's not even a need to relocate them.

There have been something like (sorry, not quoting) 36 deaths attributed to crocodiles in the last 200 years. I think more people have died from bee stings and vending machines falling on them that being eaten by a croc. I realise an 8 year old was eaten this year in NT. But she was on the water's edge and in the middle of no-where... So there is a risk there. But not enough to warrant culling because they're over populating.

As far as I am aware, crocs control their own population because of their territorial nature. I believe freshies on the other hand are probably in large supply. But they cause little or no damage to farming stocks or humans. In fact they're particularly scared of humans.

So your argument fro culling better be to stop the spread of a disease through our native wildlife because seriously, populations should be high of this animal, and we should be wary of such! But not to kill!

And yes, I saw the funny side to the sterilization argument... Hence my sarcastic answer. I don't dis anyone's opinions here, I just think mine is correct haha!

The to cull or not to cull question still seems unanswered - it is open ended. And having a politician and wildlife 'experts' here, we should be on for a few more eccentric and opinionated posts...

When we change about 5% of the world's populations' attitude is when we change the WHOLE world!

5% isn't much.. but appartently, I once read, if you can change just 5% - you've changed everyone! Don't know if that's a bumper sticker or an acceptable quote...

So both me and you Alumba... We have started... Now just another 532 498 212 people to go!
 
Going, going, going, go........

I joined this forum for reptile information, and I’m amazed at the quantity and quality of the forum information. However I’m also interested in kangaroos and other wildlife, so when I found this thread it took me quite a while to read all the posts. I agree with Richard Wells, but I must say I’m surprised at the amount of mis-information that still is being quoted by some otherwise clever people.

I was living in Central NSW in the ‘70’s, and we used to drive to an area not far from town just before dusk, and watch countless thousands, perhaps millions of kangaroos hopping into the wheat fields. Sadly that’s no longer the case. The big mobs are gone forever. Every state in Australia, (except perhaps Victoria where they don’t have a commercial kill because there are not enough kangas), has a situation of quasi-extinction, or regional extinction. The Federal government states we currently have 25 million kangaroos in Australia. However no one can find them, not even the shooters. There are now only 5 or 6 fulltime shooters in NSW, the rest are on the dole and/or working part time, and only shoot at the weekends.

Dozens of chiller boxes have closed, and the Industry is in decline, even though overseas markets are strong because the meat is cheap. Every State has similar problems.10 years of drought, and consistent, unrelenting commercial and non-commercial shooting has left our kangaroos in a situation closely resembling the eradication of the bison herds in America. This year our organisation undertook an undercover survey of kangaroo matters in W. NSW and W. Queensland. With a private detective, (for evidentiary purposes) an ex-kangaroo shooter, and a few others we drove 8000 k’s around NSW and Qld. We inspected properties and chillerboxes, we talked to shooters, farmers, and shopkeepers and did lots more that we can’t talk about yet. We hope to release the results soon, but make no mistake, kangaroo populations have crashed, and the matter is very, very serious. Even in WA, where kangaroo numbers have always been low, shooters are trying to access golf courses and conservation parks to get enough kangaroos. The Government knows all this, but doesn’t care.

But there still seems to persist the hoary old theory that we humans provided food and shelter for kangas, and that’s why they are in so-called “plague” proportions, which usually means half a dozen resting under a tree (if they can find a tree.) Studies by Dr John Auty have shown that in 1860 there were enough natural grasslands Australia wide to support 400 million kangaroos. And with 5 major river systems flowing across Australia, plenty of natural lagoons and wetlands, and good constant rainfall, kangaroos couldn’t get a drink until farmers arrived and dug dams?

I also noted on the Forum that some people quote the Pukapunyal kill as being justified. Well, I was part of the protest that eventually stopped the kill. The reason they wanted to kill the kangaroos is only because the local Federal Member’s family were grazing stock on agistment at Pucka, and they wanted the grass for their cattle. The kill was stopped because the Defence Force was seriously embarrassed by the bad publicity, as it should have been. As well, Pucka has a huge high fence around it, which trapped the kangaroos inside. We suggested they pull down the fence in strategic places so the kangas could spread out into the adjacent conservation reserves, but they wouldn’t do that because the kangas might go onto farmlands and upset more farmers. The kangaroos were not starving or diseased, and had plenty of feed. I have a lot of experience with kangaroos, and I went into Puka with others and had a good look for myself. There is lots of other mis-information being peddled on this thread to attempt to justify the commercial kill.

Make no mistake, kangaroos are in serious, serious trouble. The State and Federal Governments know this too, but couldn’t care less. I don’t hide behind a nom-de-plume either. Pat O’Brien, President, Wildlife Protection Association of Australia Inc.
 
I don't know where you went walking through Pucka dude but you must have had your eye's shut. I no what a diseased Roo looks like and when you can walk right upto them and there eyes are all white, and you can see every bone in there body because they are starved so bad, something is wrong. I don't need to be a Vet to diagnose that there were some fairly bad diseases they were carrying. You sound like another bleeding heart, if you don't like to no that this sort of thing has to happen turn the other way and pretend that it doesn't. I am getting harsh but some of you don't acknowledge that there is a problem and I have seen first hand that in a lot of areas there is.
 
i agree. none of us really want to see hundreds of animals killed at once but it is necessary atleast before we regain control of our habits. its far better ot humanely cull and use/eat the meat and skin rather than them all dyeing in horrible surcumstances of starvation and disease from overpopulation. and yeah, i think we should eat more roo meat, they re suited to our country and although dont contain the same volume of meat as a cow, im sure they survive much better than cows which have evolved in rich grass fields and not deserts. btw - that last staement is JMO and not factual, just seemingly logical. still, we do need to take responsibility for our previous actions and sadly, some future actions
 
If we keep relocating these, might I add beautiful animals, sooner or later the population will build up in those areas. Soon food will start to run out and animals will start to starve.

As we get more and more populated and we are consuming more and more land, there will be few places left for these animals to be relocated , so the way I see it is we have one of three choices; relocate them and let them eventually eat them self out of house and home (due to over population), we could stop expanding into or near their habitat or we could cull them back. I hope for the second option but I doubt that will happen in my life time. What people have to understand is that I’m not out to try and convince people to kill crocs for the hell of it nor go willy nilly destroying croc populations. Culling should have to have strict guidelines. Registered shooters, wether it be parks and wildlife or pro hunters, have to abide by because the last thing we need is to make another mistake like we did in the 60s and 70s where we almost wiped out the population of crocs.

What I would like to see happen is more organisations like Steve Erwin’s wildlife worrier foundation being created so we can free up more land so that these crocs CAN be relocated there with the out worry of people wiping out there habitat, and I would hope that the government would do there bit as well but in reality I don’t see that will happening any time soon

All I want is what’s best for the animal whether it be crocs, roos or our beautiful koala.
If we can avoid culling them with a long term solution I’m all for it, but relocation is a short term solution. In the long term it won’t do these animals any good. Unless more foundations and government support is created to free up more land so that these animals will have some where to go. (An area big enough for these animals to live in comfortably.)

Some times we have to be cruel to be kind.

At the other end of the scale we have the freshy. We don’t have to relocate them any where because the cane toad has taken care of their population numbers.

I can understand your view on things because that was my view at one stage, but after working with crocs and talking to people in this area where I used to work, I have changed my views (please don’t think I am trying to change yours because im not) on this matter it is about population survival and yes one view I don’t agree with MONEY.

I think it is best that we agree to disagree and get on with helping the people on this forum that need it!


See ya slim6y it has been good debating with you on this matter
I hope we could talk under more pleasant terms next time
And im not being sarcastic!

Thanks mate:)

Cheers Matt
 
I do not belive in culling animals because simply there are too many. it is important to preserve natural habitat for animals, any kind. i believe only introduced pests should be culled (like the rotten can toad - yuck) as introducted animals tend to prey upon natural species incorperated with habitat decline many are now becomming endangered. There are enough animals dying evry day due to raod accidents, habitat destruction (human created) bush fires etc not to cull animals. There are always two sides to every story and i suppose if anyone out there feels strongly about animals and the envoronment shouldn't we start at home?
 
To preserve natural habitat culling is required so that the over population of Roo's does not destroy there own habitat
 

See ya slim6y it has been good debating with you on this matter
I hope we could talk under more pleasant terms next time
And im not being sarcastic!

Thanks mate:)

Cheers Matt


Dude... It's all been pleasant... believe me I'm used to hardcore debate... I teach science, physics and chemistry and I am used to trying to encourage people to believe what you can't see... Even if sometimes I don't believe... hehe...

I certainly don't get angry at people's views... they're just plain wrong :p

I can safely say you have been brainwashed alumba (another bit of sarcasm sorry, it just doesn't stop does it?).

Ok.. Back to the hard yacker...

Welcome Pat99rick - a very informative read... but who do I believe now? Mayo or you??? It's so tough....

I just talked to a wildlife expert... here are somethings he said...

1: Kangaroos are soft hooved and they are top grazers, in other words they leave behind roots for new emerging shoots of grasses etc.

2: Goats are hard hooved and responsible for the deserts of africa... and apparently WA has large stocks of goat... remove the goat and encourage the roo back...

3: When and where possible encourage domestic stoock of roos. This isn't as impossible as it sounds - we have the land, we have the resources and we have the drought tolerant roo!

4: Feed and domesticate and breed in good traits and less gamey tasting meats. Market it. The domestic roo will be easy to market... And if numbers are in such 'plague' proportions then surely a few domestic starters won't go amiss...

5: A roo can have one in the pouch, on on the way and one on the ground in the correct conditions... surely that makes for great KFC (Kangaroo Fried Carcasses).

6: it's obvious domestic stock breeds - look at Lucas' avatar... it's proof in the making!

7: Roos have survived countless droughts, cyclones, predators etc... Let's re-encourage them back to their native lands, loose the goats and a few sheep... stuff the indo's and their need for live goats... it's time we farmed roo and had roo on our plates! Feeding domesticated stock will eventually allow for better tasting less gamey meat!

Forgive me if this is a load of tripe... but I seriously can't see why it's not done... or is it? has it been trialled? are we all in the "if it doesn't work now it will never work" mindset?

If their are diseased and sickly roos - due to starvation.. feed them! Get rid of the sheep and cattle from the area, encourage healthy populations of roos...

Don't say it can't be done... we dropped food into north african communitiesd in the 80s, and now their populations are thriving so much they need war to kill themselves off again...

It is possible... We can easily get food into their areas and start to encourage roo on the table...

Roo leather is better than cow leather...

Roo is just better all over... and what's more... it's NATIVE to our fine land... No other country can ever have it... It's ours and ours alone!

Yummy... i'm having joey fried rice tonight...and then tomorrow roo ear shishkebabs...

are you going to tell me that it can't be done? Because I know that it can.. we just choose NOT to.

We do it with crocs... we farm and eat and use them!

Well, let's all go for a beer, have a roo steak and a croco sarny... But none of this XXXX stuff - let's get a real beer... Macs or Speights... from the pride of the south... somewhere where possum is served in stew... yum....
 
It can and is being done, but it is not very profitable. Many people will not eat Roo due to all the scare mongaring of what you can conceivably catch from eating it. There is not a lot of edible meat on a Roo. The costs of keeping a roo for harvest is far to high, the fencing maintanance alone is very high. Have you ever noticed that Roo's are always scratching on the ground even if it is green, they do eat the root's. Cull's on goats are done but eradication of the goats, like cane toads has not occurred but we do keep trying, the same people that do Roo culls also do goats pigs etc. As much as I would like for Roo meat to be sold in greater quantity's and maybe even through places like KFC I doubt it will happen any time soon, unless there is a major change in Aussie eating habbit's. Roo's are a hardy species and will bounce back hard and fast from almost anything we do to them, or anything nature can throw at them. To feed the Roo's that are dying from starvation at pucka. They are dying due to over population if you continue to feed them they will breed faster, natural selection and nature was doing it's best to cull them but unable to do it on it's own. And there are no sheep or cattle on Pucka so that wasn,t the problem. I would happily eat more Roo if I could get more quality Roo, but since I don't live on the farm anymore I can't just find a healthy one to knock off for a meal. Good thought's though, and a debate like this is very healthy, and I have no ill feeling toward anyone so far, I would happily sit down to discuss these matters over a drink with anyone.
 
100% backing on that last line there Mayo... I really like how this debate has come across. Most people got their opinions out and weren't attacking actual people here. it's also had a good range of people here too...

Like I said I am suprised at how people feel about this subject... extreme views and liberal views alike!

I also would eat roo.. if it tasted any good... It's lean, it's low in cholestrol and high in protein... I think macca's should incorperate it in a burger and HJ also should encourage the aussie burger with roo!

It's all about perception to whether or not we would have saved the animals at pucka (which incidentally, not being local, I know little about). I know you say just feeding them would encourage more growth... but weren't they located in a small area??? I don't know enough to make comments... All i am saying is it's perception of use and requirements...

Had that been a different commodity (maybe not even a living one) we (as humans) would have gone out of our way to make it right... and made money out of it... But the expense of keeping roos (as you suggest fencing... but my possible suggestion is leave them unfenced, and attract domestic stocks to the area and leave them to run wild... If you crop the roos food you will have domestic roos... and therefore able to kill farmed roos... that will in turn keep populations static... It wouldn't be too different to sheep farming, but without fences... If that was the case... then you won't have instances like Pucka!

Quality of roo meat will increase as they are feed on high protien grain.

Cooking roo meat thoroughly, not unlike chicken, destroys any harmful micro-organisms.

I guess after a while, like sheep and cattle, we will shower the roos with pesticides and chemicals to destroy any bacteria etc... But that's a long way off.

I know people already thought of this, and im not the first to suggest it... But it's all about marketing... Don't we have a dairy board here? don't we have a lamb and pork board here? is there a roo board? a marketing strategy? Some big wigs in sydney would love this low cholestrol, no fat, high protein roo diet... Tell ya, i do!

Can't answer the eats roots and leaves comments... But I am sure that the roo does damage some vegetation, but not anywhere near as bad as goats, sheep and cattle! would you agree to that?
 
Quote:
Can't answer the eats roots and leaves comments... But I am sure that the roo does damage some vegetation, but not anywhere near as bad as goats, sheep and cattle! would you agree to that?
SLiM6y

I do agree they are a natural species and do less damage than imports, but when they over populate they become very destructive, and do damage but where sheep and cattle are only able to do damage in there paddocks Roo's damage is wide spread. Keeping livestock without fences causes many problems and therefor could result in more damage to the environment
 
More about kangaroos

It's lean, it's low in cholesterol and high in protein, I read.…Well, so is lean beef, lamb, pork and chicken, and none of them are shot in a dusty paddock, carted around on a truck all night and eventually put in an old chillerbox, which is often unable to maintain proper refrigeration in the heat of an Australian summer. Every morning when the box is opened to put in more roos and pigs, the temperature goes up through the roof, and takes all day to come down again. Then they may wait for up to two or three weeks, along with the mud encrusted wild pigs in the same box, before being carted over rough country roads to a processing plant, again with the mud encrusted wild pigs. Then its packed in a black tray, and gassed to make it last another three weeks on the supermarket shelf. Healthy meat? I don’t think so!

I’ve read all these posts, and its pretty obvious that at least one or two posters are kangaroo shooters, or have been before they ran out of kangaroos to shoot.

One issue that no one has raised (not surprisingly) is the cruelty. The RSPCA has estimated that 1% of kangaroos shot are not headshot, but body shot. In reality the estimate is likely to be much higher than that. As well as that, the in-pouch joeys are pulled from the dead mothers pouch and decapitated, or have their head smashed in, as required under a “Code of Practice” that is totally unenforceable, and accepted by no one except a few politicians, bureaucrats, and those involved in this disgusting Industry. Then there are the ex-pouch but still dependent joeys who flee into the night in terror when their Mum is shot, to die of starvation or predation. No one wants to know about them, either!

As for farming kangaroos, its illegal in every State, and no government would support it anyway. It’s not going to happen. Why can’t the kangaroos just be left alone? With most of Australia’s soil poisoned, dead, or depleted, and half of Australia’s farmers propped up by billions of dollars of drought and other subsidies, why do we have to cruelly wipe out our kangaroos for the benefit of subsistence farmers?

We have been heavily and unsustainably killing many millions of kangaroos for the last 20 years. What has this slaughter done to stop erosion, land degradation, and making farmers more sustainable and profitable? Absolutely nothing!

Pat OBrien, President, Wildlife Protection Association of Australia Inc.
 
Pat would you prefer they were just shot and left where they lay. Have you ever tried Roo as a meat it tastes good to me, if cooked right. Cruelty well save your bleeding heart dude coz there are just some facts of life that some people can't handle. If you eat meat of any kind I could create an arguement of cruelty against you. Yes the young will some times die and preditation will occur but others in the wild have to eat as well. I was not aware that farming skippy's was illegal but am not sure of that, as I did read an article on farming Roo's but it might have been a study into farming Roo's. I wouldn't count out skippy ever being farmed as a new livestock, I can't see the profits being high, but as someone mentioned earlier with the right advertising could take off. Government's can change there mind's on a wim and there would be people to support it. It would be a diverse food source that would be more environmentally friendly than cattle or sheep.Yes I ocasionally shot Roo's when I go home to the farm, it's about the only time these day's I get to have a feed of Roo. This country rides on the shoulders of the farmers how else do you get your food. Do you grow your own fruit and veg, kill your own beasts for meat etc, I doubt it, that would mean you got your hands dirty. Did Mr Wells put you onto this site I just have to ask ?
 
Pat I am partly on your view and partly off it...

But I am more leaning towards Mayo's views (seeing as he/she (sorry mayo, im not sure) has adopted part of my view).

I am lead to another story... Sometimes education just isn't enough. Take for example the non-useful research (and hence slaughter) of whales for the Japenese market.

Now I have been on a boat full of Japenese who didn't even realise their country kill the animals... Ironically, they don't seem to see this gigantic grace of the sea and the slab of meat and blubber on their dinner plate as the same animal... And somehow, we're the same with cattle, sheep...

I was only in the country for three weeks when a radio investigative journo asked me a question "Would you eat kangaroo meat?"

My answer was pure and simple.. Yes, and I already have. It tasted good.

She then asked, but what about the skippy factor...

I said "Are you implying that because they're cute we shoudln't eat them? (who became the journo now?)

Of course her reply was yes...

So I promplty replied... "Have you ever seen a lamb?"

Would you, pat, go to the same lengths to save an endangered bee? Or even an endagewred mosquito?

I personally share your conservation view, but not to the same extreme. There's absolutely NO reason to not farm these prime animals so both their numbers and stocks are no longer limited.

Farming of a native animal is not unheard of... NZ does it with mussels... i know, they're not roos... But they're farmed...

The roo board could market and sell this fine meat... We have Sam Neil advertising beef - so hugh jackman can advertise roo!

What we have to breed out of the aussie hunter is that killing any native creatures in australia is plane stupid and wrong... Go shoot a goat or a pig, but not a roo! Not a croc... Noticing some crocs in townsville...

It's the attitudes again that have to change... if we don't change their attitude we loose this wonderful resource over time.

The thing i can't understand is - why, if it is true, roo farming is illegal? That's gotta be boll ox if that's true... roo farming could easily save the roo!
 
Sometimes education just isn't enough, you need a public face like Hugh Jackman to advertise it as you said Slim6y. I don't know which part of your view I adopted but it must have been the same as mine as I am a stubbern bugger and very opinionated. Most city dwellers don't no where there food comes from, look at Babe the pig, if you told people today that they were eating babe they would freak out. I saw part of a lecture from Dr Suzuki, from the world environmental commitee. They did a study of american and Canadian kids on where they thought there meat and veg came from and a large percentage didn't know the basics. You could advertise it as super meat or something not mentioning it was Skippy and people would probably be less concerned that they were eating a national emblem. The bleeding hearts would just look the other way as they do for all the other meats and it would be all good.
 
It's lean, it's low in cholesterol and high in protein, I read.…Well, so is lean beef, lamb, pork and chicken, and none of them are shot in a dusty paddock, carted around on a truck all night and eventually put in an old chillerbox, which is often unable to maintain proper refrigeration in the heat of an Australian summer. Every morning when the box is opened to put in more roos and pigs, the temperature goes up through the roof, and takes all day to come down again. Then they may wait for up to two or three weeks, along with the mud encrusted wild pigs in the same box, before being carted over rough country roads to a processing plant, again with the mud encrusted wild pigs. Then its packed in a black tray, and gassed to make it last another three weeks on the supermarket shelf. Healthy meat? I don’t think so!

If you have proof of this, then why is kangaroo meat available in our supermarkets?

Mayo said:
Many people will not eat Roo due to all the scare mongaring of what you can conceivably catch from eating it.

Hix
 
More about kangaroos

I can’t understand why anyone would want to farm kangaroos. The economics don’t stack up, the farmers only want to farm cows and sheep, and as I said earlier its illegal in every State and also illegal under the Federal EPBC Act. It would prove nothing, and within a few years anyone foolish enough to take it on would be trying to breeding animals that had more meat on them, shorter legs, etc, and we would lose the original kangaroos anyway, just as we have lost the original cows.

There’s something else. Overseas markets are booming for kangaroo meat, because its cheap, and the so-called “sustainable” quotas can’t fill those orders. The Industry doest have to buy land or breeding stock. However what many people don’t realise is that the biggest demand is for salami and sausage meat. Offal, trimmings, waste meat, and the forequarter bones are put through a huge crusher and turned into paste, then exported to make salamis and sausages in protein poor countries. Salamis are not cooked either, they are cured by fermentation, so any bugs are still in the product. Don’t eat imported salamis. No one will ever know how many Russians or other Europeans we have killed with this product.

One post asked about where I get my food from. As we all know the vast bulk of our farm produce is exported, and we could feed every Australian on the product that comes out of Tasmania alone, or even Victoria. There are plenty of farmers who don’t kill kangaroos, and are quite happy to share the grass. I know many of them, in fact I used to be one myself. And Hix asked if I have proof of how the product is mishandled, yes we do, including chiller box temperature charts, which we will be using in a Court case next year. The Kangaroo Management Plans also have written into them the appalling “Code of Practice” and other points I’ve raised. They are available for perusal on the Federal Gov. DEH website. We have also raised these matters at four AAT Court cases, the Transcripts and Findings can be found at www.kangaroo-protection-coalition.com The State and Federal governments know all this too, but just don’t care!

Why don’t we just leave the kangaroos alone? We don’t have to kill them! As I said, many farmers can live with them, but some people just like to kill things for the heck of it.
 
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