Woma ovulated but didnt mate......

[deebo]

The two eggs I wasn't confident on ended up in the bin the other day but the other 5 are going well with nice solid veins in them. I'd be happy with 5 out of 7 with retained sperm!

 

[reptileaddiction]

she popped one more out this morning and there is still one to go but she doesnt seem too interested in trying to get it out at the moment....the one from this morning doesnt seem to be fertile but will see what happens.

Did the remaining one come out?

 

[deebo]

the one retained is from the year prior which surprises me, i thought she would have passed it this year.....she was xrayed a while ago and it was slowly being absorbed so was left rather than surgery. It is a lot smaller now so I assume her body was drawing it a lot during the ovulation etc of the new clutch. I will get her xrayed again soon to see what is happening with it and make sure everything is ok.

 

[No-two]

the one retained is from the year prior which surprises me, i thought she would have passed it this year.....she was xrayed a while ago and it was slowly being absorbed so was left rather than surgery. It is a lot smaller now so I assume her body was drawing it a lot during the ovulation etc of the new clutch. I will get her xrayed again soon to see what is happening with it and make sure everything is ok.

I don't see how she could be absorbing it but it may be getting smaller because it's breaking down and going rotten. I had this happen with a woma several years ago. A very similar situation I thought she would push it out when she laid a following clutch. The clutch was laid but same retained egg. It went rotten and gave her and infection. She subsequently died as a result.

 

[deebo]

I was told if it was going to rot and turn septic it would have done a lot sooner than 12 months down the track. It has gradually been shrinking in size since her last clutch and since ovulating this time I thought she would have pushed it down and layed it but it has remained and has drastically decreased in size.

They can reabsorb follicles they develop but why not an egg? I realize a follicle and an egg are two very different things but is there a reason why they could not reabsorb an egg?

 

[bigguy]

Deebo Congratulations. That is now the second python to lay eggs from retained sperm. The first was a Bredls who laid a fertile clutch after a 2 year gap from mating.

Eggs form in the ovaries. From here they can either be force out into the ovaducts or reabsorbed back into the ovaries. Once a snake has ovulated(the eggs have entered the ovaducts) then they can no longer be absorbed. Something has to be laid wether fertile or infertile. Eggs that are not laid normally rot if not surgerically removed, and most snakes die of blood poisoning

 

[deebo]

bigguy - thanks for clearing that up. Are there any indications on how long a snake can retain and then pass retained eggs before death occurs? The egg/lump is defintely shrinking in size so what would be happening to it? would it be getting passed in small amounts? Are there many instances of retained eggs being passed and the snakes surviving that you know of?

When you say second snake to lay eggs from retained sperm, is that within Australia? in womas? Surely there are more than two cases?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[No-two]

My girl died whilst developing follicles for her third clutch Dave the retained egg was from 3 years prior and her first clutch.

The follicles are quite different before they're shelled you can see how they would be absorbed as there is no shell. Here is a photo of some well developed follicles from when my girl died. I didn't have the egg removed for a similar reason and I was expecting her to be able to pass it sooner or later. I think once it goes rotten your chances of developing blood poisoning as bigguy mentioned is pretty high.

 

[bigguy]

Dave As far as I am aware only 2 pythons in the world have laid a clutch from retained sperm. It is common in colubrids, but was once unheard of in pythons. So far a bredli laid 18 fertile eggs 2 years after being mated, and now a woma 1 year after mating.

As for females surviving with retained eggs. I have heard of some, but alas most tend to die if not removed by a vet. Are you sure the retained egg is in the ovaducts. If it was I find it hard to fathom how this years clutch passed by it. It may be in the ovaries and is slowly being reabsorbed

 

[deebo]

hey hayden,

thanks for the info and pics.....

Do you have a pic of the retained egg? It seems strange that something could sit inside them for so long and then after 2-3yrs turn septic and kill them.....I wonder really what the difference between reabsorbing a follicle and a shelled egg is?

 

[bigguy]

A follicle is formed in the ovaries were nurishment which comes from the females body forms around a ova(egg), and as it was produced there, the nurishment can be reabsorbed there as well if the female does not ovulate. Once a follicle leaves the ovaries it can not be reabsorbed as the ovaducts are just tubes made of tissue thin tissure and are only used for eggs to be fertilised and develope before laying

 

[deebo]

bigguy,

I will try and find the cd with the xray pics of the retained egg.....I was honestly quite suprised when she ovulated and then very surprised when she managed to pass eggs this year as I was expecting the retained egg to be at the front of the lot. The first egg she passed was infertile and a bit mis-shapen but that obviously had nothing to do with the retained egg from the year before. Once I knew she had she ovulated I was a bit concerned as to what was going to happen this year so I kept a very close eye on her and took the day of work once I saw her commencing to lay. I am assuming that the lump she has in her is a retained egg as I never noticed it before last years clutch and from the xray and the vets opinion it is an egg. It cannot be moved up and down inside her like you would expect a tumour but seems stuck to her internal cavity.

Can you explain how it may be stuck in her ovaries as opposed to her oviduct? I thought that follicles where formed from the ovaries and then shelled/moved into the oviduct when ovulation occurred. Could it still be attached to the ovaries somehow if it is an egg?

Will dig up the xrays and that may clear things up.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[bigguy]

The unshelled follicles are forced out of the ovaries during ovulation. They amass in a cavity around mid body(this is the stage when one see ovulation as a large mass mid body). From here muscle contractions force the eggs down both the overducts. This is were the sperm is normally waiting and the eggs fertilised. over the next 2 months or so calcium encases the hopefully fertilised eggs. If the eggs were calcified in the ovaries then the sperm could not penertrate and fertilise the eggs in the overducts

You may find your girls retained egg is just a follicle that adhered to the ovary wall and failed to reabsorb properly and hardened

 

[deebo]

one of the eggs a couple of weeks from hatching - can see movement in all of the remaining 5 so fingers crossed!

 

[cathy1986]

one of the eggs a couple of weeks from hatching - can see movement in all of the remaining 5 so fingers crossed!

you should make a vid clip of the movement it would be cool to see

Cathy

 

[deebo]

first one has decided to poke its head out today....day 62 for these. Will grab some pics once they are out.

 

[onthillside]

Some great info in this thread guys.
well done.
T

 

[Marzzy]

Can't wait for the pics, thread was a good read indeed.

 

[Madders]

This is fascinating, thanks for sharing

 

[deebo]

two heads poking out now.....the rest are all "right" way up so im sure wont be too far behind.