Sunday morning cranky rant

[beeman]

Where the hell is our hobby headed ?????? :shock:.

There seems to be too many people that are hell bent on trying to
breed reptiles "cose we can make money from it'" that they rush in and
buy any adult animals they can find and away they go, with out having
researched the WHOLE process properly prior to comencing the attempt

Things like having an Incubator set up and running before eggs arrive, basic stuff yet it doesnt happen!!!!!
Breeding animals that have had surgery to remove a clutch of eggs in the past because of
problems!! why restress an animal like that again????

Dont get me wrong here i am not against anyone having a go at all! But for the animals sake
pull your heads in and look at what needed to take the WHOLE process through to completion.
Remember people that its a 12 month programe not a 5 minute one and if you dont have the abilitly to look at it in that way then admire your animals for what they are and dont put them through the stress of blunders created buy keepers!

END OF RANT!!!!!!!

 

[missllama]

i noticed that a while ago, so many people getting into it just for the money
i use to own quite a large collection, but i never bred anything, i use to try to avoid getting males and females of things just because i was happy just having the reps to look after, i wasnt interested in breeding anything
i saw alot of kids who were new to reps trying to get things breeding just for extra $$ and its annoying when they have no clue and end up coming on here asking a zillion questions because they didnt look into it first
im ok with them coming on aps and asking questions, its what its here for, but look into it before u get them to breed not after!

 

[Snakelove]

they probably don't know all the dedication and commitment needed to breed reptiles. not that i do but i knew a couple of people that bred reps and its not easy.

 

[mysnakesau]

I agree with you Beeman but honestly why bother upsetting yourself over it. I feel for the animals involved but are those ppl ever going to listen? No. All you're doing is asking for trouble to land at your door. So long as you care about the welfare of your animals, and the wildlife around you, nobody can ask for a better person than that. Its ppl like you, who care for their animals, will be the ones who earn the reputation of a good keeper/breeder. Ppl will put other ppl onto you for advice and information, and buying your babies. It doesn't take long for ppl to see through those who are in a "get rich quick" game. They might become popular in their world, and perhaps in the face of the pet shops, but good breeders can usually pick these kind of ppl, and it don't take long for word of mouth to get out about who are good to buy from, and who to avoid. All most good breeders know to avoid purchasing off the street or pet stores simply because you'll never know the truth of the animal's background. Might be ok as a single pet or so, but to breed with, I don't know many who would risk their beautiful collections and quality bloodlines for a good looking animal in the hands of stupidity.

 

[Kris]

Totally agree Beeman. No-one can keep reptiles as "pets" anymore it seems, once they have the permit some(keyboard worriors) seem to think they are going to be the next big thing in breeding/morphs/crap etc etc. Once upon a time, keepers kept there animals for a while as pets, learnt as much as they could about their chosen pet then late had a crack at breeding them. Now it sems to be a get rich quick type hobby for the kids.....especially the spoilt little pricks that have mummy and daddy buy them gtp's, roughies, and super dooper morphs(average animals with comical tags) etc etc.

 

[wranga]

so true beeman. some will get lucky and find its easy money. then theirs the others that will have problem layers, problems with hatchies feeding and end up with dead snakes. dont get mewrong im far from an expert, and dont mind helping anyone to have ago. but like beeman said its not a 5 minute cycle to breed, its 12 months of work getting snakes to breeding weights, cooling, pairing and mating, waiting for ovulation and egg development, egg laying, then 2 months of incubation, then if your lucky you might have some hatchie to try and get feeding

 

[reptilefan95]

Yep thats true infact my preference is to not breed reptiles, id rather have a few nice reptiles to look at instead of being hell bent on breeding them....

 

[derekm]

Ultimately, I forsee reptile breeding and showing heading in the same direction that the dog, cat and bird communities have had for many years - show societies, published "breed" standards and registered judges. While this approach has a number of advantages (not least of which is that buyers of registered juvenile animals have a greater confidence in the genetic integrity and appearance of the adults), it hasn't stopped, or even slowed, the breeding of "mongrel" dogs and cats. "Quality" breeders don't need this much structure and "poor" breeders will ignore it but, when we have it, we will know our hobby has achieved a "mainstream" level of maturity.

 

[Kersten]

Totally agree Beeman. No-one can keep reptiles as "pets" anymore it seems, once they have the permit some(keyboard worriors) seem to think they are going to be the next big thing in breeding/morphs/crap etc etc. Once upon a time, keepers kept there animals for a while as pets, learnt as much as they could about their chosen pet then late had a crack at breeding them. Now it sems to be a get rich quick type hobby for the kids.....especially the spoilt little pricks that have mummy and daddy buy them gtp's, roughies, and super dooper morphs(average animals with comical tags) etc etc.

My love, you're focusing way too much on kids....again Sound like a cranky old fart! Sure there are ones like you talk about who's parents buy them animals and they treat it as a money making enterprise....but you're forgetting that adults are just as guilty of this sort of behaviour as younger people. Or have you forgotten the people who spend stupid amounts of money on animals they know nothing about, throw in their jobs (and turn down work when it's offfered to them), and then whine when they don't make the money they wanted from breeding as quickly as they wanted to?

Sure I get what you're saying Beeman, and I totally agree. But it's not the only problem with the hobby, and while it's frustrating to see, it won't be changed. Nor will any of the other ridiculous carry on that happens. When I first started meeting people who kept snakes I wondered why they all seemed so against having anything to do with other keepers. In fact, most of the older herpers I've met say they make a concerted effort no to form friendships with others who share their interest, and have stuck to it with very few exceptions. I wouldn't say that I'd take it as far as they do, but I can definitely see the appeal in that sometimes.

 

[Barno111]

Im to lazy to read the whole thread. But just going to stick my two bobs in. One issue of noob breeders. It is the animals that are going to loss the whole time. People, (i know i do) would rather buy there animals from a well known breeder who breeds quality animals not quantity. So the noob breeder is going to stuck with animals he/she probly cant look after. Which is really a problem becuase this is when animals start to be released into the wild. Anyway im glad i got that off my chest!

 

[WombleHerp]

I currently have 4 snakes, bought them all just for pets, as i like the species! I have had them for at least 4 years now, and am thinking about breeding them. I have researched the point till my brain hurt from too much info lol.. But i agree, the research definately needs to be done before jumping into the Bull pen Blindfolded so to speak... I can't wait to breed them though, it's an experience thing, and i want to see what colours my snakes will throw Exciting stuff definately. The cash from selling the hatchos is just a side bonus from the breeding in my opinion

Nat

 

[ivonavich]

But yeah, on a serious note, I don't think anyone should breed snakes until they have raised one from a hatchy to sexual maturity.

 

[barbed_wire_dove]

I totally agree that theses too many people out there breeding for money and not looking out for the well-being of the animals 1st.
I got my 1st snake just over 8 years ago, and always wanted to try breeding one year, not for the money, but just to see the process from start to finish, get the experience, and have some little awesome friends from the day they hatch til the day they die.
Before i even purchased snakes capable of breeding (most of the ones ive had prior were rejects / had health problems / people werent willing to look after them etc), i got a new tank set up with everything id need for the snakes, I made myself an incubator from scratch (with a little help from my dad) hehe - tried and tested, read a million books/forums, talked to heaps of people about how its done step by step.
Then talked to friends and family about homes for the little guys when they came along, sorted everyone that was interested out with licensing information, as well as a crapload of other info etc, Now ive got everything i need, mum with babies on the way, more than enough homes all planned out for the little guys if there are too many (with people that are more than willing to put in the time and effort), ive got hatchy tanks all made up, that are going to the new homes with the little snakes.
and this is my 1st year breeding =)
and i still, in no way, consider myself an expert - theres always gonna be more to learn off someone whos better at it than you, i reckon.

 

[derekm]

Ideally, I don't think anyone should breed snakes until they have have helped or observed an experienced breeder though at least one full 'mating to first unassisted feed' experience. Probably not practical though, because it puts too much pressure on experienced breeders to step up as role models and mentors.

 

[Jungletrans]

Okaaaay then , so why do " exp breeders" always advertise pairs [ usualy clutch mates ] at a discount compaired to singles ? Would this not encorage first timers ? Breeders are the ones keeping their snakes in tub racks , more cost efficient , more profit . More hatchies available will drive prices down and make the money less attractive anyway .

 

[Kris]

Not all do. If they are buying hatchies, then they have a good 2 1/2- 3 1/2 years to learn about the species. Which is better than buying every adult they can afford, then starting the threads we see here.

 

[derekm]

Okaaaay then , so why do " exp breeders" always advertise pairs [ usualy clutch mates ] at a discount compaired to singles ? Would this not encorage first timers ? Breeders are the ones keeping their snakes in tub racks , more cost efficient , more profit . More hatchies available will drive prices down and make the money less attractive anyway .

Interesting point! A number of pedigree dog and cat breeders will only sell neutered puppies/kittens to "pet" buyers and will only sell "entire" animals to other registered breeders. Maybe when our hobby embraces the "registered breeder" approach, this practice may become common for sold reptiles.
The point of beeman's original post was not about breeders making a profit, it was about inexperienced people deciding to breed for profit before they had acquired enough knowledge or practical skills to do it well.

 

[JupiterCreek]

The ready availability of information on the 'Net definitely makes it easier for people new to the hobby to glean information, to purchase stock and supplies, and to ask questions.

Back in the 80's I wanted to keep Plains Rats. I was interviewed by Rob Baker who was director of the Adelaide Zoo before he'd sell me a pair. He wanted to make sure that I was up to the task. I remember him saying that Plains Rats were so much more demanding to keep than my Spinifex Hopping Mice. Now Plain Rats are an exempt species in SA.

Similarly when I started with Gouldian finches and Adelaide Rosellas they were described as being more demanding to keep and breed successfully. Gouldians are now on the exempt list, and Adelaide Rosellas on the basic list.

All we had back then was the local library and advice from other keepers who we'd bump into at the pet shop or the fodder store, or sometimes the chance to ask questions of museum or zoo staff. A request for books on Australian aviculture or small mammal husbandry at the bookstore got you directed to titles on British or North American species, or at best an Australian "Field Guide to whatever". A Google search now brings up a vast array of fact sheets, forums and websites with a lot of information and opinions. What we're seeing here is comment on the opinions. As readers of those opinions it's up to us to question the attitude, credibility and credentials of the writers and work out their wisdom and credibility from there.

 

[derekm]

Not all do. If they are buying hatchies, then they have a good 2 1/2- 3 1/2 years to learn about the species. Which is better than buying every adult they can afford, then starting the threads we see here.

I'm raising a hatchie stimmie and I don't think I'm learning anything relevant to breeding from the experience. Everything I know about breeding I've learned from "Keeping & Breeding Australian Pythons" and supplemented by reading relevant posts on this forum. I am not a breeder and have no plans to be a breeder but, if I did decide to get into that side of the hobby, I would want to do an "apprenticeship" with an experienced breeder before I started. I'm not convinced that I can learn all I need to know about this just from reading.

 

[ivonavich]

I'm raising a hatchie stimmie and I don't think I'm learning anything relevant to breeding from the experience. Everything I know about breeding I've learned from "Keeping & Breeding Australian Pythons" and supplemented by reading relevant posts on this forum. I am not a breeder and have no plans to be a breeder but, if I did decide to get into that side of the hobby, I would want to do an "apprenticeship" with an experienced breeder before I started. I'm not convinced that I can learn all I need to know about this just from reading.

But it gives you the time to learn.... If you're buying adults with the view to breeding in the next couple of months you don't have that time....
Also if you're raising a hatchy you are learning the care required for that species for the early parts of it's life - useful info to pass on to those that are purchasing hatchies you may produce...