2012 and we're now OK with hybrids?

[Waterrat]

What do you mean by unethical, unnatural modification?

I though those words are plain and clear. It's not a criticism wokka, just a little bit of philosophical pondering.
If there are no ethics within the hobby, so be it, I just wonder how would the cross-breeders and morphers feel being interviewed by someone like David Attenborough asking: "do you respect wild animals?" :shock:

 

[wokka]

So is selective breeding unethical, or accelerating a natural process? What was natural, changes as locality barriers break down. eg SOFAR runs frog rescue in Newcastle. I believe pretty well any type of frog turns up via accidental transport in fruit boxes and the like. Is transport now part of our current environment and so the crossing of of various types of frogs which previously were seperated by 1000s of miles occurs "naturally" or at least unplanned..

 

[Waterrat]

How can you call transport and accidental relocation a natural process?

When I questioned the ethics, I was thinking more about the consequences of cross breeding and morphing, in particular the unethical act of selling / passing on something that is not what the buyer is told it is. But it really starts at the cross breeding / morphing point, doesn't it? If there were no drugs, there would be no junkies.

 

[Boidae]

I dislike hybrids, well most morphs or colour mutations for that matter.
I never will like them, give me an Olive or a Bredls anyday...
I find a lot of them to be a bit artifical in a sense.

But in the grand scheme of things, if creating morphs like these brings more new people into the hobby
(hopefully not too many with only $$$ on their minds..) then I guess that's a positive..

I'm certainly not very fond of Jags (well.. breeders anyway).
As far as I know, most Jags will have moderate to severe neuro issues.
In my opinion, putting a snakes quality of life second after making sure it has 'pretty colours' is wrong..

 

[cement]

Here is one true example, a couple of friends of mine bought a python each off a seller, who was vague about what it was.
At the time my friends weren't that cluey on the whole hobby snake scene and thought they were buying coastals. He trusted that he was buying a coastal and so bought it. he is now more informed as he is continuing to work and study wild herps. he brought it to me to ID, but I couldn't, it was definatly cross and probably MD x Coastal but I could only say that I have no idea, and had to keep correcting him when he would call it something. After a while it got to him and he sold it, not wanting to be associated with them.

The crossing of subspecies and the jag thing will never sit well with me. I have definatly not jumped ship, only become to a degree, tolerant. But I am not in the hobby ''Business" where an individuals ethics are challenged, and justifications are sought from the click.

 

[imported_Varanus]

I will never jump ship. To me, it's a reminder of what we humans do to everything we touch (being a bit melodramatic). Personally, the evolution and biology of a particular species is what does it for me, I don't want the latest candy coloured morph mongrel on the market just to say I have one. It's like keeping up with the Jones's, snakes have become the latest new must have product and no one gives a bugger about anything "real", which is not why I got into herps in the first place.

 

[TurtleDan]

In response to Geckoman,

The situation in birds is even worse! "lutino (producing a yellow bird) alexandrine parrots" are a short term result of crossing lutino indian ringnecks with alexandrines and then crossing back to alexandrines but then sometimes at 15/16 breeders will chuck a lutino ringneck back in the mix. The resulting birds do not look like alexandrines and all of the 1/2 and 1/4 birds are worthless awkward looking animals.

The situation with lorikeets is worse again. Now instead of just breeding trichoglossus species with each other to get mutations in other species, scaly breasted(trichoglossus sp.) lorikeets are being crossed with musk lorikeets (glossopsitta sp.) to move the lutino mutation into them, and lutino rainbow lorikeets (trichoglossus sp.) (already impure from hybridising with scaly breasted lorikeets) are hybridised with the foreign red lory (eos sp.) to move lutino into this species, not held in great numbers in australian aviculture. Then you find ads for lutino red lories that read;

This lutino red lory has been produced by hybridising but was NOT bred by the breeding of a red lory to a lutino trichoglossus/one of its parents is NOT a lutino trichoglossus. (so what was it bred with??)

I am personally opposed to hybrids, i love my beautiful snakes and beautiful turtles just as nature made them. I do acknowledge a difference however between deliberate hybridisation and where hybridisation has occured earlier in a line by misidentification or where two subspecies were once not recognised.

just my two bob and i hope we dont end up with a market flooded with homogenised "australian pythons" for sale

 

[Waterrat]

Here is one true example, a couple of friends of mine bought a python each off a seller, who was vague about what it was.

I like that. ...... was he the breeder or "on-seller"? This is a classical example of how things can go innocently wrong.
I could also give some examples in the "GTP field of deception" where someone buys juveniles from another breeder (cheap of course) and then sells them as his own. It's going on right now. That's the kind of ethics .... or rather lack of, I was on about.

 

[FusionMorelia]

imo
if you go and buy an animal and do almost zero research ask few questions and deal with someone you know zero about your taking a massive risk and if you get a dodgie animal its not every ones fault cause its a mix or ill or coverd in mites etc its your own fault for not doing the work, you wouldnt buy a car or phone or a dog with such a blasé attitude and if you did would you blame all care yards/phone sales men etc etc? i highly doubt it.

 

[PythonLegs]

I think the majority of breeders selling cross breeds as pure are simply ignorant of the core discussion here, rather than actively being deceitful, if that makes sense. But as the hobby is growing exponentially, the numbers of scumbags selling crossbred rubbish will skyrocket as more and more people take up breeding to make a quick buck- why spend thousands getting two quality chondros, when a coastalxchondro will sell just as easily for almost as much?

Interesting that the most vocal in support of hybrids have a vested interest in them.

 

[GeckoJosh]

In response to Geckoman,

The situation in birds is even worse! "lutino (producing a yellow bird) alexandrine parrots" are a short term result of crossing lutino indian ringnecks with alexandrines and then crossing back to alexandrines but then sometimes at 15/16 breeders will chuck a lutino ringneck back in the mix. The resulting birds do not look like alexandrines and all of the 1/2 and 1/4 birds are worthless awkward looking animals.

The situation with lorikeets is worse again. Now instead of just breeding trichoglossus species with each other to get mutations in other species, scaly breasted(trichoglossus sp.) lorikeets are being crossed with musk lorikeets (glossopsitta sp.) to move the lutino mutation into them, and lutino rainbow lorikeets (trichoglossus sp.) (already impure from hybridising with scaly breasted lorikeets) are hybridised with the foreign red lory (eos sp.) to move lutino into this species, not held in great numbers in australian aviculture. Then you find ads for lutino red lories that read;

This lutino red lory has been produced by hybridising but was NOT bred by the breeding of a red lory to a lutino trichoglossus/one of its parents is NOT a lutino trichoglossus. (so what was it bred with??)

I am personally opposed to hybrids, i love my beautiful snakes and beautiful turtles just as nature made them. I do acknowledge a difference however between deliberate hybridisation and where hybridisation has occured earlier in a line by misidentification or where two subspecies were once not recognised.

just my two bob and i hope we dont end up with a market flooded with homogenised "australian pythons" for sale

Thanks for that but it doesn't really answer my question, do many other bird keepers share your view?

 

[cement]

I like that. ...... was he the breeder or "on-seller"? This is a classical example of how things can go innocently wrong.
I could also give some examples in the "GTP field of deception" where someone buys juveniles from another breeder (cheap of course) and then sells them as his own. It's going on right now. That's the kind of ethics .... or rather lack of, I was on about.

I am not 100% sure, but I think the breeder. It was a juvie.

 

[GeckoJosh]

I think the majority of breeders selling cross breeds as pure are simply ignorant of the core discussion here, rather than actively being deceitful, if that makes sense. But as the hobby is growing exponentially, the numbers of scumbags selling crossbred rubbish will skyrocket as more and more people take up breeding to make a quick buck- why spend thousands getting two quality chondros, when a coastalxchondro will sell just as easily for almost as much?

Interesting that the most vocal in support of hybrids have a vested interest in them.

I think calling them scumbags is a bit strong, sure many people don't like what they are are doing, but it seems the majority either don't care or support them.
Sure there are scumbags breeding Jags etc, but there are people just as bad selling/breeding pure lines as well.
I know hard working and honest people who breed Jags, they do not deserve to be labelled scumbags imo.

 

[cement]

imo
if you go and buy an animal and do almost zero research ask few questions and deal with someone you know zero about your taking a massive risk and if you get a dodgie animal its not every ones fault cause its a mix or ill or coverd in mites etc its your own fault for not doing the work, you wouldnt buy a car or phone or a dog with such a blasé attitude and if you did would you blame all care yards/phone sales men etc etc? i highly doubt it.

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You probably were born wise to the ways of the world, so it obviously doesn't apply to you, my friend.

 

[JungleManSam]

My auntie in law drives a Hybrid. I can finally speak out and not be criticized. Im not gay either.

 

[Vincey]

My auntie in law drives a Hybrid. I can finally speak out and not be criticized. Im not gay either.

bout time someone lightened the mood a little bit, lol

as for hybrids etc;

Each to their own, there will always be people interested in pure lines and always people interested in getting hybrids.
I see so many people on both sides of the fence being hypocrites and argumentative morons.

Life goes on.

 

[wokka]

Interesting that the most vocal in support of hybrids have a vested interest in them.

Equally those who dont support them dont have them.
That is logical as it only demonstrates their accepance or lack there of.

 

[Waterrat]

bout time someone lightened the mood a little bit, lol

as for hybrids etc;

Each to their own, there will always be people interested in pure lines and always people interested in getting hybrids.
I see so many people on both sides of the fence being hypocrites and argumentative morons.

Life goes on.

So, how did your post contribute to the discussion? I don't read any moronic arguments here - do you?

 

[FusionMorelia]

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You probably were born wise to the ways of the world, so it obviously doesn't apply to you, my friend.

born wise lol its called common sense pal everyone is born with it.

 

[Waterrat]

born wise lol its called common sense pal everyone is born with it.

:lol: That sound very naive, I am afraid I have to disagree. Lol, LOl, lol Or is it one of those recessive traits that can be lost through a short-term evolution (like a puberty)?