Coastal or Intergrade???

[NoOne]

I know that no one can say exactly how long ago things happened, but thats the easiest way to explain it to people.
The main reason for explaining it that way is so people do realise that crossing a diamond and a coastal in captivity will not give you an intergrade.
Even if you were to try it in captivity IMO you would not get the same thing as your taking out the chance element of particular animals meeting in the wild, things dying etc.


As for seeing intergrades with diamonds or coastals, you only have to look at coastals from Coffs harbour or Diamonds for Foster or Port Stephens to see they they have got intergrade influence to them.
Thats not what i'm talking about, i'm talking about Port Macquaire carpet pythons.

If you stand in the centre of Port Macquaire and walk in a straight line, by the time you find diamonds or coastals you won't be anywhere near Port Mac anymore.
The point is that Port Mac intergrades (which are only found in Port) only breed with Port mac intergrades, they are a locale of carpet python, therefore they are not a natural hybrid, just a carpet python found in Port Mac with a bad name.
Thats why they have been given that unfortunate name of intergrade because they are the transition between Diamonds and Coastals.
The further south you Diamonds have less banding, the futher north you go the less rossettes coastals have.
I'm not saying wild hybridising doesn't occur, i'm saying it doesn't occur in Port Macquaire.

 

[Australis]

Isnt it possible that the "Natural intergrades" of Northern NSW, are one of the steps of Evolution for the Coastal Carpet python as it slowly moved south inhabiting the cooler enviroment of NSW, in the end resulting in the evolution of the Diamond pythons?

Of course, maybe Noah droped a couple of Coastals off in NSW, then headed south droped a few Diamonds off at Sydney, then "BAM" they meet up in Northern NSW to creat "intergrades". :roll:

The problem is that to admit that there is natural hybridisation going on would then strengthen the argument set forth by pro hybrid keepers.

Im not having a dig but how could it strengthen any pro hybrid views?

 

[Blackdog]

Its hard to make everthing conform to our various standards of whats what. This is a wild carpet from the Sunshine Coast hinterland. TrueBlue made mention of this and will tell you having lived in this area for a while that there are plenty of different Jungle/Diamond like colour variations to be found here.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Thanks Duga, you've got it in one. Greg H has a few choice PM carpets(!!), as I do myself, and I have a lot of photos of some of the animals I've encountered here in the last 12 months - mostly removing them from rat racks in the garage lol!

SnakeWrangler, you assume far more than you should. It is just as likely that so-called intergrades were on the coast here FIRST, - they could just as well be the definitive carpet python on the east coast - and those that moved north morphed into coastals because the colours & patterns were more suitable, and those that moved south morphed into diamonds because the darker ones were more successful in a cooler climate.

This scenario has just as much credibility as yours. Don't assume that coastals & diamonds, which are in fact both carpet pythons, were ever discreet populations on different parts of the coast. There are reasons why these things look as they do, and perhaps for reasons we don't yet understand, they are as they are, wherever they are on the coast (or inland for that matter.)

Port Macquarie carpet pythons are NOT hybrids in any sense of the word, and who knows, maybe when there's a bit more taxonomic work done on these east coast carpets, they might all end up being the same species, or may be broken up even more.

Duga is also correct in suggesting that confusion between "hybrid" & "intergrade" is affecting the desirability of this snake in collections. (We can thank the late, great Eric Worrell for that!) I would suggest that some "intergrades" are actually amongst the most beautiful pythons in the world, without exception, with colours & patterns unmatched by almost anything else. Don't get me wrong, I have yet to see a Morelia I don't like... except chondros with black scales ha ha!!!

Jamie.

 

[MDPython]

This thread is a great example of just how good this site is!......
The infomation provided by both "Duga" and "Jamie" to me is priceless!.....
This is the sort of stuff i love to read!, and definatly the type of info that is never going to be found in a pet shop python book!?.....

Cheers !

 

[SnakeWrangler]

As for seeing intergrades with diamonds or coastals, you only have to look at coastals from Coffs harbour or Diamonds for Foster or Port Stephens to see they they have got intergrade influence to them.
Thats not what i'm talking about, i'm talking about Port Macquaire carpet pythons.

Yes, that is my point, the lines blur at the boundaries, I understand that to get to pure coastals or diamonds you have to leave Port Mac, but the main point was that at some point "integrades" and diamonds or coastals will meet somewhere. At the locations where the two sub-species meet "hybrids" are created when they breed, of course they are not true hybrids because they are more than likely the same species, but in captivity if a diamond is crossed with a coastal it is classed as a hybrid and it is in that sense that I use the term hybrid. I understand what you are saying when you say that hybrids are not created in Port Mac, Port Mac is completely within the "integrade" range, therefore only "integrades" are found there. Having said that, IF they were the result of a coastal / diamond mix then they would be the product of hybridisation, thinking of hybrid as I just described.

SnakeWrangler, you assume far more than you should. It is just as likely that so-called intergrades were on the coast here FIRST, - they could just as well be the definitive carpet python on the east coast - and those that moved north morphed into coastals because the colours & patterns were more suitable, and those that moved south morphed into diamonds because the darker ones were more successful in a cooler climate.

This scenario has just as much credibility as yours. Don't assume that coastals & diamonds, which are in fact both carpet pythons, were ever discreet populations on different parts of the coast. There are reasons why these things look as they do, and perhaps for reasons we don't yet understand, they are as they are, wherever they are on the coast (or inland for that matter.)

Port Macquarie carpet pythons are NOT hybrids in any sense of the word, and who knows, maybe when there's a bit more taxonomic work done on these east coast carpets, they might all end up being the same species, or may be broken up even more.

Duga is also correct in suggesting that confusion between "hybrid" & "intergrade" is affecting the desirability of this snake in collections. (We can thank the late, great Eric Worrell for that!) I would suggest that some "intergrades" are actually amongst the most beautiful pythons in the world, without exception, with colours & patterns unmatched by almost anything else. Don't get me wrong, I have yet to see a Morelia I don't like... except chondros with black scales ha ha!!!

Jamie, my assumption is that IF diamond and coastals are the basis, I personally think that there was only one kind of carpet python originally and each distinct locality is the product of that species moving around Australia and adapting to the environment, just as you said.

I agree that Port Mac carpets are not hybrids, that was said under the assumption of the coastal / diamond basis, it is quite probable and probably more likely not the case. I do think that the range boundaries for all carpet pythons do have natural hybrids (in the sense I said above). I just wonder what that original species must have looked like to be able to be refined into the many variations that are found around Australia today.

I personally believe that they will eventually be classified as a single species, however I hope the sub-species are kept to show locality, however as in the case of all "integrade" zones, more sub-species classifications need to be made. That would also bring the "integrades" out of the "mongrel hybrid" mentality.

That specimen shown by dugadugabowbow is beautiful and I think it puts coastals and diamonds to shame (except for that coastal owned by amethystine, that is a stunner by any standard). :shock:

MDPython, if you read what both Jamie and duga posted, you will see that no one has definate answers, there is still a lot of research that needs to be done, probably the most important is the taxonomical work needed to properly classify carpet pythons. But you are right this kind of discussion is not going to be greatly expounded in a pet shop python book, at least not yet and yes this site is awesome, warts (me) and all. :lol:

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Im not having a dig but how could it strengthen any pro hybrid views?

If natural "hybrids" occur ever, then no one can say it is unnatural. Of course I am not talking about woma x coastal (or similar), that would never happen in the wild.

 

[MDPython]

MDPython, if you read what both Jamie and duga posted

HEY i read it trust me it took ages lol(tipsy) but its still good info even if there are no definate answers?!..... :mrgreen:

warts (me) and all.

Warts?? nick name? i hope? ya know ya can get them things frozen off!!??lol :mrgreen:

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Warts?? nick name? i hope? ya know ya can get them things frozen off!!??lol :mrgreen:

:lol:

Nah, I think I can be as annoying as a wart sometimes though. :lol:

 

[NoOne]

They aren't hybridising in the wild because it's a gradual change from diamond through to coastal, it's not a clear cut cross like you can do in captivity.
I agree theres alot more work to be done on carpets, if anything i would like to see it so that people can't use Port mac carpets as an excuse to cross breed diamonds and coastals.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

I understand what you are saying, but that is only true if they are in fact the result of a single species moving aound Australia and adapting to the subtle changes in environmental conditions and I agree with that. That also means that a coastal and a diamond are not hybridising when they are bred, even in captivity because they are the same species, so I don't know what you would call the result of crossing coastals and diamonds but it cannot be hybrid, not in the true sense of the word. In fact you could liken the situation with carpets to humans, white and black people may look different but their combined offspring are not hybrids.

 

[cris]

Snakewrangler even breeding the same subspecies from differant localities is creating a hybrid to some degree. Most ppl seem to draw the line at the name level however.

white and black people may look different but their combined offspring are not hybrids.

Well, yes they are. Most ppl are infact hybrids to some degree, well unless you are inbred. Im a hybrid myself

 

[NoOne]

Thats getting away from the point of this thread, human can not be likened to snakes.
It's pretty obvious that not all carpets aren't the same species, or sub species you can't say south western carpets are from the same species that traveled around Australia and adapted.
These snakes aren't the same species, diamonds and coastals are different species, thats known.
The point of this thread was someone asking about their snake, which wasn't an intergrade, i tried to explain it in simple enough terms for people so they can see why it was very unlikely to be an intergrade.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Yes, it is getting away from the thread topic.

Humans cannot be likened to snakes in a biological sense, but I wasn't trying to do that, more in a representative sense. By whom is it known that coastals and diamonds (or any carpet python) are distinct species?

Cris, by that line of thinking you could say that any offspring from any living thing is a hybrid because it is the product of two distinct entities, it is neither the same as its mother or father but a cross of the two. All humans are the same species, therefore when a human breeds with another human the result is not a hybrid, in any degree.

 

[cris]

All humans are the same species, therefore when a human breeds with another human the result is not a hybrid, in any degree.

OK whatever you say keep in mind that most carpets snakes are Morelia spilota so they are also the same species so by that logic a jungle cross diamond isnt a hybrid either. Jungle pythons and Diamonds are basically a differant race and it can be likend to any other animal including humans IMO.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

I do say it so it must be true. :lol:

If you read what I said earlier, that is exactly what I think. Jungles, coastals, diamonds, etc... are most likely the same species so the combined offspring are not hybrids in the true sense of the word. If you look at the incredible variability within the morelia spilota species you can see that "coastals" for instance can come out looking like almost any of the other carpets from the same species, this points to a very close relationship which is why they are all classed as sub-species of the same species.

There are no "races" within the human species, I don't know much about genetics but I know that the only difference between humans is the "values" contained in our genes. For example humans have gene(s) that determine how much fat should be around the eyes, for some people the gene(s) dictates minimal fat, for others it dictates lots of fat, but regardless ALL humans have gene(s) that determine the amount of fat around the eye, it is the same for all other genes in humans, we are gentically the same (except in the case of abnormal mutations which are NOT based upon "race" or "interracial" breeding). I know I am probably using the term "gene" wrong here, but the concept is the same.

 

[Rosemary]

Earlier in this forum someone mentioned a Grafton Coastal. I am just curious to see what they look like, can someone please post a pic if they have one available.
Thanks

 

[AGAMIDAE]

this is what I consider a coastal Carpet, its a local animals caught for relocation..

 

[ad]

Jungles, coastals, diamonds, etc... are most likely the same species so the combined offspring are not hybrids in the true sense of the word.

What are you basing this on?????

 

[AGAMIDAE]

yeah I am with what ad is going on about!!!