Jungle Cross GTP

[Glimmerman]

RE: Get ready

At least I can still keep elapids in Sydney. Either that or it gives me a dam good excuse to relocate to FNQ or similar :lol:
Then again the amount of corns etc found around here of late, they might become native to my area and we might just keep them (exotic or not).

 

[Retic]

RE: Get ready

I certainly agree that the effect of an escapee shouldn't be played down, there is absolutely no reason to think a escapee would die before it could do it's damage. We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking a snake can only survive in it's own little environment, how many of us give our animals EXACTLY the conditions they would get in the wild ? Could a Bredli live in the Brisbane area ? Probably. A Jungle ? Almost definitely. Could Stimsons live where Spotteds come from ? No problem.

 

[shamous1]

RE: Get ready

I can't believe this thread has not blown up into a major cat fight. :lol: See everyone can get along.

 

[Retic]

RE: Get ready

Yes there could be a good reason for that but I'm not going to say

 

[Pythoninfinite]

RE: Get ready

If you look at all the parameters I've considered, it's not just survival that's important - maybe a snake can survive in a foreign environment, but breeding successfully takes a lot more than survival. SnakeWrangler, to have succeeded in it's reproductive obligation, a pair of snakes need only produce 2 surviving offspring in it's life, to ensure the population remains stable, and that's from one or a dozen clutches, doesn't matter how many. The HUGE (sorry for shouting) success we enjoy in raising vast numbers of captive babies is simply not reflected in the wild, otherwise we would be overrun with snakes, being the highly fecund animals they are. Do Bredli cycle at the same time in the wild as a Brissy carpet? Probably not. Do jungles respond to the same factors that bring about breeding, at the same time in the wild? Probably not. Breeding takes a lot more than just survival.

It's good to see you back again Boa, I'm still waiting to see your list of benefits of hybridising, and also how you would mark those animals throughout their (possibly) very long lives.

SnakeWrangler, I don't understand what you were saying with regard to species/subspecies being able to breed. Subspecies are usually locality defined, and would generally in the wild only breed with that same subspecies. Where I live we get both normal and Bell's phase Lacies, but the are not split into subspecies, a lace monitor is a lace monitor, and from what I understand you can get both forms in one clutch of eggs.

The major point I am trying to make is that not one of you has come up with a good reason to hybridise, except that it produces (sometimes) pretty animals, and it is an infringement on your freedom not to be able to do it. Don't lose sight of reason for THIS thread - it's about hybridising in captivity. What happens to escapees is fodder for another thread in the future, and regardless of the assumptions you have made about my apparent lack of concern about that issue (and they are your assumptions), they are not relevant to this debate.

Jamie.

 

[Retic]

RE: Get ready

Jamie, I have been here but just watching for awhile. I did actually talk about the list of benefits and how I don't consider it necessary to have a list of reasons for the existence of a hybrid. I love the look of carpondros as do a great many others judging by this thread and having talked to keepers. In my eyes it would be very difficult to sell off a carpondro as anything other than what it is. As for other hybrids I couldn't say, some look nice and some don't like any snake pure or otherwise.
As for how would it be possible to keep track of these animals throughout their lives well again like anything you have to rely on keepers honesty as we do now.
I do agree with others here, I can't see that making it illegal will actually acomplish anything. It's already illegal in Queensland and is commonplace.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

RE: Get ready

I think that's abit of a cop-out Boa, but really all you can say is that you like the look of them, so you should be able to breed them. Actually carpondros (1st X) are probably a bad example because they are fairly conspicuous, but what happens with the next breeding, with either a carpet or a chondro, and the babies might be indistinguishable from one or the other. All I seek to do is encourage a community view that it is not an acceptable practice for the very valid reasons I have pointed out, and asked you to put the alternative view with valid reasons too. But I don't think you can, except for the comments you have already made.

And it may just be "commonplace" in Qld because the implications haven't been considered seriously until now. If the "authorities" become agitated about this issue, it won't be me who's responsible, it will be those doing it right now. Even if it is "commonplace" in Qld, it is illegal for very good reason.

Jamie.

 

[Retic]

RE: Get ready

It's not a cop out at all, I like some hybrids plain and simple. I really don't have to compile a list of positives for me to find it acceptable.
YOU don't find it acceptable and that is absolutely fine but I just think you need to accept that others feel differently about the subject.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

RE: Get ready

Jamie, I do understand what you are saying but what has this got to do with anything, if a successful mating was to occur between a bredli and a coastal in the wild there would be survivors, even if it were only one this new snake would now be even more suitable for the environment than the original foreign parent, it would then go on to breed and all its surviving offspring would be tainted and on it would go.

To say that a mating could not happen between these two is wishful thinking, if a coastal and bredli being kept in captivity under the same conditions can breed, then why not in the wild? The conditions for each is not that far apart that it could not happen.

When I mentioned a sub-species breeding with another sub-species from the same area, I meant where the range of two different (coastal and diamond for instance) sub-species meet. People like to call them 'natural integrade' because it sounds better than hybrid, a natural integrade is nothing more than a hybrid, regardless of the amount of time over which they have developed. Besides what do you call a pure diamond that breeds with a natural integrade? I know people like to believe that the animals do not cross into each others ranges, but come one, how did the integrade come about in the first place? A coastal went into diamond territory or the other way around, they bred and now we have integrades, there are other ranges that meet where I am sure the exact same thing occurs.

So what if a coastal escaped from a house right in the middle of the diamond range? Surely you can see that it would survive and breed there.

 

[cris]

RE: Get ready

I personally think having that while making/having hybrids illegal will reduce the number created it will also make ppl more inclined to sell off hybrids as pure animals since its illegal to sell them as hybrids.
This is one of the biggest problems IMO and it has nothing to do with if you like hybrids or not.

I think if they are legal but well regulated far fewer contamination problems will arise.
Im sure the bulk of breeders are more interested in pure animals and i believe that they are perfectly capable of maintaining pure captive stock into the future.
At the end of the day in the worst case scenario we could always take more animals from the wild.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

RE: Get ready

SnakeWrangler, you make some assumptions which really are just that. Your assessment of diamond pythons and coastals coming together to produce intergrades is probably incorrect too - do you know that they were ever distinct and separate populations before they "came together"? What we call intergrades are just locality carpets, common on the mid-north coast where I live, just as diamonds are locality carpets from further south. They are NOT hybridised diamond/coastal carpet pythons. If you look at the carpet python continuum from northern Victoria, right up the coast to far noth Queensland you will see a sort of continual change throughout the range. As far as I know, there is no evidence that they were ever totally separated populations that spread into each other and "hybridised".

Bredli have been adapting over hundreds of thousands of years to live in an environment which is ferociously hot and dry in summer and very cold in winter, each of those seasons in central Australia is long and extreme. Coastals are adapted to a far milder, more humid climate here on the east coast, warm wet summers and brief, mild winters. I made a point before about the fact that we knock off the highs and lows in captivity, because they all seem to live OK under an "averaging" regime, but when exposed to the rigours of the great outdoors, it would be a different story. And you assume that they cycle at the same time and all that other stuff that they need to do to breed - very unlikely to happen.

Australia is full of animals which have specialised to be able to live where they do. Move them out of that area and they will not cope. I think the evidence is there, where has it happened to date, that a species (Australian) has become naturalised in an area with a totally different climate?

Jamie.

 

[pugsly]

RE: Get ready

What we call intergrades are just locality carpets, common on the mid-north coast where I live, just as diamonds are locality carpets from further south. They are NOT hybridised diamond/coastal carpet pythons. If you look at the carpet python continuum from northern Victoria, right up the coast to far noth Queensland you will see a sort of continual change throughout the range. As far as I know, there is no evidence that they were ever totally separated populations that spread into each other and "hybridised".

Here here!

 

[cris]

RE: Get ready

This is slightly off topic but dont jungle and coastal carpets both live in the same area naturally?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

RE: Get ready

Oh no, a naturally occurring jungle/coastal cross - I get cross :evil: just thinking about it...

Thanks Steve, I'm on a campaign to get these damned, so-called "intergrades" referred to as "Port Macquarie" carpets as you know... Eric Worrell started the business of "intergrades" with his "Dorrigo-Kempsey" intergrade assumptions decades ago, and it sort has stuck.
As far as I know though, there is just no evidence to indicate they were a result of coastals coming south meeting diamonds coming north.

And people ALWAYS refer to them as hybrids, which they are not...

Jamie.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

RE: Get ready

Oh no, a naturally occurring jungle/coastal cross - I get cross :evil: just thinking about it...

Thanks Steve, I'm on a campaign to get these damned, so-called "intergrades" referred to as "Port Macquarie" carpets as you know... Eric Worrell started the business of "intergrades" with his "Dorrigo-Kempsey" intergrade assumptions decades ago, and it sort of stuck.
As far as I know though, there is just no evidence to indicate they were a result of coastals coming south meeting diamonds coming north.

And people ALWAYS refer to them as hybrids, which they are not...

Jamie.

 

[Nagraj]

RE: Get ready

I,and I'm sure many others, fully agree with your viewpoint Pythoninfinite and you have presented a logical argument against hybridisation.