Jungle Cross GTP

[Pythoninfinite]

Boa, you are MOST welcome to come up with a list of your own, please feel free to add to the list of positives if you can, I welcome the debate. The community as a whole has the right (and the obligation) to decide what should be done for the common good, not in all circumstances, but certainly in some. Why do we have laws which, to use your example from yesterday, dictate the speed of cars in built-up areas, manage the distribution of (most) handguns in the community, or attempt to control drugs? Those regulations are imposed for the common good at the request of the community, some of them work pretty well, some of them some of the time, and some of then not very well at all. But sadly Boa, life is not, and can't be, a free-for-all because some people lack the judgement not to impose on others.

But that's actually getting off the track a bit, as I said, please put your arguments up here as I've done, rather than commenting more on the way I've done it. I've asked you previously to tell me how it would be managed to prevent the problems arising, but all I get is comments about how one-eyed I am...

It might surprise you that I'm actually not a pro-legislation person - resort to legal avenues would ALWAYS be a final option in my book, and after 40 odd years in a bureaucracy associated with wildlife management, nobody is more aware than I am about how they operate, and what their agendas are. I do think that the fauna laws in Australia are poorly thought out and rarely work to the benefit of the fauna the laws are designed to protect. I do think that keepers should have access to more material, even wild-caught, because a limited or managed take does far less harm to wild populations than the wholesale habitat destruction we see every day. Collecting from roads is a perfect way to collect animals which would otherwise meet it's demise, for example... So I'm certainly not ready to go down the legislation path without a good deal of thought...

My dislike of hybridising is based on consideration of the possibilities, and the facts as I understand them, but I'm a pragmatic man, and if you can demostrate to me that the benefits outweigh the negatives, I'm with youall the way :mrgreen: .

AND, just to prove I'm a beautiful, even-handed man, I heard THIS VERY MORNING of a potential carpondro breeding in one of the southern states THIS VERY SEASON, so if you're interested Boa, I'll keep you posted... How's that???

You can't get better than that!

Jamie.

 

[Retic]

Jamie, thank you for that. The way I look at it is in my eyes there doesn't have to be a pros and cons list where one outweighs the other, I mean of course you could say it will be disastrous for all keepers in the long term and I could say it wont be, because I don't think it will be. If you look at your arguments against it is ALL based on the fact that they will get into the system un noticed and contaminate the whole gene pool, I can of course counter that by saying I don't think that will happen.

I really don't have to outweigh the positive and negatives, if as I have said in my opinion it wont be the end of pure keeping we know it then I don't need to counter your argument.

I certainly would be interested in hearing about the carpondros, not to buy as I would sooner produce my own :lol:

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Now come on Boa... you can't just say you don't have to balance the argument after we've gone this far... You really do have to tell me how the stock will be permanently marked as hybrid once it leaves the breeders at least... just tell me how you would prevent it happening...

I'll keep you posted on the carpondros though...

Jamie.

 

[Monkeyman]

That Carpondro is gorgeous

 

[SnakeWrangler]

I know I said I was not going to get into again, but what the hell. :lol:

I am interested to know what people have in mind when they think about hybrids. Are you thinking, carpondros, comas, etc... Are you thinking crossing subspecies... or Are you talking about both as equally bad or good?

I personally think that if two animals will on their own accord breed together and the offspring would be viable and fertile, then it is not unnatural, even if they would never see each other in the wild. On the other hand, I think animals that would not breed together naturally and need to be artificially inseminated is an entirely different thing. Not that I think the latter should not be done, but I just see them as different.

I think it is the responsibility of the breeder to ensure that all buyers know what they are getting and that they need to be responsible with them. Saying that a buyer could buy an animal and not know its history as hybrid or pure implies that the seller was dishonest, no one is immune to dishonesty, if someone wants to sell the animals that look pure as pure then anyone can be fooled.

But consider the obvious here, if someone is dishonest enough to sell a hybrid as pure then do you really think that they are going to stop breeding hybrids because the law says no? The only people who would be affected by such a law are those that would be honest about it anyway, the honest people will not breed them because it is against the law and the dishonest will do it and sell them as pure. So nothing is really gained by making it illegal, I completely agree that there needs to be more education about these things but banning hybrids is not the answer IMO.

Jamie, to be completely honest I think you are viewing this through rose coloured glasses, you seem to think that making it illegal will curb the problem to the point where it will be a non-issue, but that is simply wishful thinking and not reality.

 

[Australis]

I think it is the responsibility of the breeder to ensure that all buyers know what they are getting and that they need to be responsible with them. Saying that a buyer could buy an animal and not know its history as hybrid or pure implies that the seller was dishonest, no one is immune to dishonesty, if someone wants to sell the animals that look pure as pure then anyone can be fooled..

Even if every single breeder was honest, it still wouldnt control the problem. One single hybrid could change hands several times over its reproductive life, tainting many lines.. Does "Chinese Whispers ring a bell"?

Making it illegal, might not be prevent many people from breeding them, but it may just reduce the desire for people to buy a illegal animal..


Matt

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Hey Matt, once sold the responsibility lies with the new owner, if they sell the animal then an honest person would state the history of the animal, again, not doing so would make the person dishonest and the law would have virtually no effect in the situation anyway.

Also, making it illegal may make people stop buying hybrids, but it will not stop them buying a hybrid sold as pure, which is exactly what the dishonest people will do to sell their animals.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

You're getting caught up in semantics there SnakeWrangler - what Matt says is exactly what I've been saying, if you read my posts again. I have never said it will prevent people from hybridising, those that want to do it, even if it is illegal, will still do it, because they can - and frankly, even with legislation, the chances of getting caught are slim. I have never suggested it will become a non-issue, if you read what I wrote yesterday, I spoke of MINIMISING the problem, not eliminating it.

I'm far from having rose colured glasses, after decades of dealing with reptile people by the way.

Tell me how many reptile sellers in the states that allow retailing seriously consider the provenance of the animals they buy IN BULK to on-sell to pet keepers, when they buy them unfed, full clutches at a time, sometimes hundreds of animals at a very low price. The only thing they are interested in is PRICE, nothing else, believe me. Not even the overall health of the animals is of much concern, as long as they can get them out the door asap and realise a quick return. What pet keeper asks for a pedigree when buying their first pet snake? They don't, because they often know barely enough to keep it alive in the first place, let alone seek answers to questions they haven't even thought of.

In the life of any given reptile, it may pass through several keeper's hands, and as I said before (if you read my posts), record keeping is not a strong point for any but the most obsessed individuals. The history of individual animals is long forgotten after the first change of hands.

All we can do is attempt to minimise hybridising by indicating clearly to keepers that it is potentially damaging to the hobby, and one way of doing that would be to make it clearly a condition of the licence...

That's fair.

Jamie.

 

[waruikazi]

I'm so over this thread! :roll: it's been going around in circles for days, I would suggest to both sides (including the side i am on) to find some middel ground and do something about your concerns wether through talking to your parks and wildlife authority or member of parliament. As of this point I'm out!

SUL :!:

 

[star11]

That was a good read guys.....Well done!! :wink:

 

[snakegal]

This may be the biggest thread ever?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Not bad for an old bloke eh?

J.

 

[adderboy]

Interesting read, and for the record, I agree with you, Jamie. Hybridisation would add to the uncertanty of what you're buying (already enough with dubious "locality" descriptions, dodgy intra-genus hybrids such as jungle crosses being passed off as diamonds, etc) and as you say down the track, in a world of limited or no taking from the wild, we'll have no "true" species in captivity, which in my opninion is highly undesirable, and I'd suggest that would be the opinion of most.

By the way, I noted a reference to Ray Hoser doing something odd with elapids - without venom? What's that about?

Simon

 

[Australis]

By the way, I noted a reference to Ray Hoser doing something odd with elapids - without venom? What's that about?
Simon

Its not just Odd its cruel, He puts the snake that he wants to destroy into a fridge, and then after being chilled to near death straps it down to a piece of non-sterile wood with elastic bands and nails. then removes the venom glad with out using anything to control pain!!

Then travels around Australia making money off the cruel act, claiming how important it is two be able to hold several of Australias most deadly animals all at once to compare them. :roll: :roll:

Im sure ill be labled a "Hoser Basher" or "Hoser Hater", for these above comments, but so be it :lol:


Matt

 

[SnakeWrangler]

How do you guys feel about people who let their animals escape that are not native to the area? This is a bigger threat than hybrids, I don't see anyone kicking up a big stink about that. People post here that they have lost a snake and people respond with things like "don't worry about it, it happens to everyone"!!

I would sooner destroy the entire captive population than allow the wild populations to be tainted from escapees. Maybe we should be banning anyone from keeping animals that are not native to their area? Of course this would mean we all would have to give up most if not all of our collections.

What do you think?

 

[shamous1]

Get ready

How do you guys feel about people who let their animals escape that are not native to the area? This is a bigger threat than hybrids, I don't see anyone kicking up a big stink about that. People post here that they have lost a snake and people respond with things like "don't worry about it, it happens to everyone"!!

I would sooner destroy the entire captive population than allow the wild populations to be tainted from escapees. Maybe we should be banning anyone from keeping animals that are not native to their area? Of course this would mean we all would have to give up most if not all of our collections.

What do you think?

Hope you have your flame suit on. 8)

 

[SnakeWrangler]

RE: Get ready

I thought I felt things heating up... :lol:

Now fully dressed for the occasion. Thanks.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

RE: Get ready

Good... I think, for the purposes of this discussion, we can stick to the subject of captive hybridisation. Many snakes won't thrive if they escape into a foreign environment - they are adapted to a set of environmental conditions which suit that species particularly. When we have them in captivity we offer them a fairly generalised environment which most of them are comfortable in, but in doing so we knock off the extremes of the external environment to which they are subjected outside. There will be a few exceptions (hence the exotic debate, but we won't go there at the moment...) but for example, diamonds don't thrive in Darwin (and usually die after a couple of years if no cooling is available), and NT carpets wouldn't do too well in a Melbourne winter. Wild reptiles from different areas are adapted to a particular niche, whether it be temps, day length, humidity or whatever, they all have to come together to make breeding possible, and for the foreigner and the local to get together it would have to happen at the same time. This is unlikely, even if the foreigner did survive long enough to even think about breeding.

Even if it did happen, it would not be anywhere near as concentrated an attack on genetic integrity as the release of genetically polluted animals into the relatively small captive gene pool, especially where a large number of animals survive with our good husbandry skills. Most progeny from wild breedings die or are predated on long before they can breed.

Jamie.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I think I would be more comfortable if I found non endemic water pythons living in a pond in Alice Springs that a Bredli population that looked like jungles. :shock: :lol:

 

[SnakeWrangler]

RE: Get ready

I was not comparing captive hybrids and wild animals because there is no comparison, of course the genetic "attack" would be more servere in captivity, but it only takes a single escapee in the wild to survive and to pollute the wild genes and it is there forever, even if the initial affect was only mild, eventually the genes would spread throughout most of the population given enough time, even quicker if the escapee is a male. It would be foolish to think that all escapees die, that is very unrealistic.

I am more than a little suprised that you are willing to play that risk down. I am wondering why you would be more concerned over captive animals than the wild ones, if we were only allowed to keep native species then it would be impossible to breed hybrids anyway, except those that occur together, but if they are sub-species then they would naturally breed anyway.