Keeping snakes in small containers

[Waterrat]

If you're not a commercial breeder and keep your snakes in tubs / racks - can I ask why do you keep snakes in tubs or even why do you keep snakes at all?

1/ Look what I cram cram into my room
2/ Look how many snakes I've got
3/ I get the cleaning done in half the time
4/ It's more hygienic than cages (bull...! They crawl in their faeces in tubs)
5/ My snakes get more privacy in tubs, it's good for them
6/ I only see them when I feed them or clean the tubs, that's enough for me
7/ If I have to move house, it's easier
8/ Tubs are cheaper than display cages
8/ I feel awesome being surrounded by so many snakes
Anything else?

The commercial breeders have a purpose and reason to keep snakes in tubs - what's yours other than any of the 8 points above?

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

How do you know that? Any real evidence? How can you tell what reptiles are "enjoying" and what not?

This is the point to this discussion, start asking for evidence that these animals prefer either of the keeping methods and the discussion suddenly runs dry! We will never perceive their point of view. This whole debate( all 11 pages of it) is based on nothing more than opinion.

 

[Waterrat]

Exactly. Statements like "they don't care if their surroundings are nice" are totally out of place and that for several reasons; we don't know if they care or not, we have no idea what their perception of their surroundings is either. The missing point here is - do landscaped cages stimulate the occupants to be more active, i.e. more exercise? And if the answer to that is yes, than it's convincing enough for me to say A is better than B.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

If you're not a commercial breeder and keep your snakes in tubs / racks - can I ask why do you keep snakes in tubs or even why do you keep snakes at all?

1/ Look what I cram cram into my room
2/ Look how many snakes I've got
3/ I get the cleaning done in half the time
4/ It's more hygienic than cages (bull...! They crawl in their faeces in tubs)
5/ My snakes get more privacy in tubs, it's good for them
6/ I only see them when I feed them or clean the tubs, that's enough for me
7/ If I have to move house, it's easier
8/ Tubs are cheaper than display cages
8/ I feel awesome being surrounded by so many snakes
Anything else?

The commercial breeders have a purpose and reason to keep snakes in tubs - what's yours other than any of the 8 points above?

I was going to stay out of this discussion but I feel I need to say my say. We are not a commercial entity. We keep all our animals in racks, it is our choice to do so. We also hold back lots of our hatchlings for future selection and breeding projects. Our animals are also not pets, snakes in our opinion should not be seen as pets. They are wild animals and will never be domesticated, no matter how hard we try to put them in that category. Michael, you could never understand why we keep reptiles in racks in the southern states. Unfortunately we don't have the weather that you experience up in Cairns. You also don't do much in regards to temperature cycling, environment control etc. up where you are from. If you were ever lucky enough to really do all the hard work that we do down south to get our animals to breed then you might understand why we keep our animals in racks.

 

[Guest]

never been a fan of battery farms
but some of the racks out there like the FB racks have a larger floor space than some of the display enclosures people keep their snakes in
either way
using a rack or a display enclosure doesnt make much difference if the enclosure or tub is too small for the snake

longqi a rack system might be better for a comercial breeder as they can cram more snakes into a smaller space to make more money, fair enough! but is this better for the snakes?

 

[longqi]

Racks have proven to be by far the most sterile and efficient system for commercial breeding
In saying that I agree with you that they are probably NOT as good for the snakes as real habitats would be
My experience over a period has shown that snakes in boxes are seldom as inquisitive and curious as those kept in habitats
Only my hatchlings stay in racks for easy control and because I simply have far too many to give each one a habitat
Even my top breeders have their own or joint habitats out of the breeding rooms
Some of my display snakes can be seen at wahyu hijau in facebook

 

[Waterrat]

I was going to stay out of this discussion but I feel I need to say my say. We are not a commercial entity. We keep all our animals in racks, it is our choice to do so. We also hold back lots of our hatchlings for future selection and breeding projects. Our animals are also not pets, snakes in our opinion should not be seen as pets. They are wild animals and will never be domesticated, no matter how hard we try to put them in that category. Michael, you could never understand why we keep reptiles in racks in the southern states. Unfortunately we don't have the weather that you experience up in Cairns. You also don't do much in regards to temperature cycling, environment control etc. up where you are from. If you were ever lucky enough to really do all the hard work that we do down south to get our animals to breed then you might understand why we keep our animals in racks.

Point taken.
Please tell me (and I am not having a go at you at all) why do you keep snakes, what do you do with them, what do you derive from having them, etc.. That's sort of thing none of the tubbers explained yet. You can tell me where to go, it's not my business and I accept it. But I am really curious why people keep large collections in tubs if they're not commercial breeders, exhibitors or genetic engineers.

 

[getarealdog]

I use tubs,cages & outdoor pits. Use tubs for all my adders with 3ft cages for the adults. Eastern,Western Tigers & RBB's spend 75% of there time in outdoor pits (6x5ft) & in winter spend it in tubs without heating. Pythons (only have adults) are kept in 3ft to 6ft cages. BTS's are currently in tubs but soon to go in 4x2 vertical cages. Juvie/sub adult elapids get the use of a playpen (spare outdoor pit) on nice days. Put some out yesterday & will leave them there for the week. I think bigger is better (for adults) but each to their own.

 

[Wookie]

They are wild animals and will never be domesticated

Define domesticated? I think a lot of pythons are domesticated. I've seen some vens that border on domesticated.

snakes in our opinion should not be seen as pets.

Why do you keep them then? Obviously not pets for yourself. So you breed and sell them to people as pets? Yet you don't believe in them being pets? Also, you keep certain lines back, to try inject or accentuate certain traits, making them more attractive as pets? I mean, you wouldn't try breeding designer snakes to educate the public on wild animals that shouldn't be kept as pets, would you?

 

[hugsta]

At what point does a 'private' breeder become a 'commercial' breeder???

 

[Wookie]

At what point does a 'private' breeder become a 'commercial' breeder???

If you go by the definition then as soon as you sell the animals you breed.

 

[Waterrat]

At what point does a 'private' breeder become a 'commercial' breeder???

Both are loose terms. When someone produces a lot of offspring for the purpose of selling them, it's touching on commercial activity. SR, URS and SX are in a league of their own.

 

[longqi]

Carpetpythons I spent years in Mudgee and Nelson Bay playing with snakes including GTPS and Julatten Jungles so I know a lot about temperature etc and the problems
But I NEVER used racks or tubs at that time
Unless you have a valid reason to keep all your pythons in boxes why do you do it???

Saying snakes will never be domesticated is ridiculous
Just visit some of the Burmese Indian or Thai temples and villages where snakes live as part of the family
I do NOT mean the places on the street where they defang cobras etc but the places where most families have at least one snake living with them on a daily basis

20 years ago few people kept snakes in Australia
We had lots of problems at that time just getting information etc because there was no internet
So we are very young in experience compared to some asian people who have been involved actively for thousands of years

A snakes in any type of box or habitat is a curiousity
A snake who is part of the family is a thing of wonder

I have two retics living in my roof space
I tap on the roof and they come over to the hatch to see what is going on
Sometimes they come down at night and are waiting in the lounge for a feed when we get up
When we have a party at least one will stick its head out to see whats going on
They could very easily just leave if they wanted to
But they stick around and are a pair so will probably mate
Their previous owner had them shut into boxes
One escaped from my enclosure but hung around looking for its mate
It got quite cozy in the roof space so I let the other one join it

Closer to home the biggest scrubby I have ever seen lives in a roof about 10 minutes from Cairns Central
An old woman came to see me about it because she was getting too old and wanted to make sure it is safe if she dies
It has been there for a very long time
Every month she leaves three chickens on the kitchen table and in the morning they are gone
She has never handled it but has stroked its back a couple of times
I had a look at it and it is a very dark colour but in fine condition

Interaction between humans and snakes is a very new thing to caucasians
But it does happen
The sooner we start treating snakes as pets the sooner they will respond

 

[hugsta]

The point being, does a kid at home with a trio of beardies potentially breeding 3 clutches of say 25 from each female deem him as commercial, that's 150 beardies a season, an aweful lot, or 1 spawning of frogs that produces 1000 taddies..?? As soon as you need to house a lot of animals, even though you may only have a few adults, suddenly you need to a lot of room to house and maintain the offspring. So little Jonny in his bedroom with a trio of dragon's suddenly needs to house a lot of babies, a lot of crix, heating etc etc. So should he set up more timber tanks etc so the animals are 'happy' in your opinion? Or would you set up plastic tubs to house them in....?? The latter will be everyone's choice.

 

[Wookie]

The point being, does a kid at home with a trio of beardies potentially breeding 3 clutches of say 25 from each female deem him as commercial, that's 150 beardies a season, an aweful lot, or 1 spawning of frogs that produces 1000 taddies..?? As soon as you need to house a lot of animals, even though you may only have a few adults, suddenly you need to a lot of room to house and maintain the offspring. So little Jonny in his bedroom with a trio of dragon's suddenly needs to house a lot of babies, a lot of crix, heating etc etc. So should he set up more timber tanks etc so the animals are 'happy' in your opinion? Or would you set up plastic tubs to house them in....?? The latter will be everyone's choice.

But some may argue that letting them breed is a conscious choice and as such, you must be prepared to fork out that money before you choose to breed.

 

[Waterrat]

Hugsta, it has been established somewhere in this long thread that keeping hatchlings in tubs is not only OK but inevitable. Little Johny with his beardies is not a commercial breeder because he doesn't keep / breed his beardies to sell them, at least that's not his intention. I think you are splitting hairs here.
There are people who keep 100 + reptiles in their collections (in tabs), their intention may not be to sell them but it becomes necessity if they breed. My question was - what motivates these people to keep such large collections and why are they keeping reptiles at all? I am not knocking them, I am just curious, that's all.

 

[Guest]

. So should he set up more timber tanks etc so the animals are 'happy' in your opinion? Or would you set up plastic tubs to house them in....?? The latter will be everyone's choice.

it wouldnt matter what the enclosures are made of hugsta as long as they are the large enough to house the animals properly

do you think because little jonny has bred too many animals to fit into his bedroom its fine for him to keep them their entire life in the tub's? or do you think if little jonny cant provide the adequate space for each individual then maybe he shouldnt be breeding his trio of beardies in the first place???

 

[longqi]

"do you think because little jonny has bred too many animals to fit into his bedroom its fine for him to keep them their entire life in the tub's? or do you think if little jonny cant provide the adequate space for each individual then maybe he shouldnt be breeding his trio of beardies in the first place??? "

This hits it on the head

But I am a commercial breeder
I make no apologies for keep my hatchies in racks
This is by far the most efficient way to do it
My breeders have habitats

I am also what you term a demonstrator
Those animals are kept in habitats

I am also a reptile lover
Those animals have both habitats and freedom to come and go

So there are degrees of separation here

I simply could not keep any reptile larger than a hatchling in a box or tub for an extended period
But that is only me

Like waterrat I am curious why anyone who is not a commercial breeder would keep their adult reptile in a box or tub????

Can we please leave short term emergencies out of any answer??

 

[Waterrat]

Don't hold your breath longqui, there won't be too many answers.
I am very passionate about large, landscaped enclosures (in case someone haven't noticed) but I also understand the advantages of tubs and racks in some circumstances. It would be foolish of me to think that I am going to convert 'tubbers' into 'habitaters' but if I can inspire some people to change the way they view reptiles, I would be a happy man. There is so much more to keeping reptiles than just being in possession, play God with morphs, make money or have a pet with a name. There is this thing called "natural history" and it's sad to see how detached some people are from nature.

 

[seanjbkorbett]

~ SORRY TO BURST YOUR BUBBLE TREE HUGGERS!!..ha ha.. but MOST Pet Shops,venom facilities,wildlife facilities,sanctuary's,zoo's,SCIENCE LABS use rack systems and tubs..as a visitor to a park,sanctuary or zoo, you get to see amazing done up enclosures,and its wonderful..but behind the scenes,they mainly use rack systems,tubs etc to breed and house their snakes... trust me i know this