My Oldest Pet

[steve6610]

hi dicco,
lol, sorry, but i'm with you now, i agree with what you have said, and we won't go into cross breeding at this moment as it takes away from what a very nice snake peter has, i'm certain the intergrade i have is pure, and parko i wish they were classed as a port macquarie it all would be simple, but thats where all the troubles start, if you say i've got a port macquarie python most people don't know what your talking about,

thanks for making things a bit clearer for me,

sorry peter for ambushing your thread, she/he is a very nice snake and no matter what it is, i'd still love to have one the same in my collection,

cheers,
steve.......

 

[peterjohnson64]

Hey Steve, THANKS for ambushing my thread. Serp is now a rather famous snake thanks to you and Dicco. She just keeps popping up on the post list. I also have anojther thread about mites. I have already done my guys but everyone says to mist the cage. How can I mist her cage???

 

[Parko]

Just spray the spray into the cage and it will get ''misty''

 

[africancichlidau]

I think Pete is talking about an OUTSIDE cage Parks. Pete can you glad wrap the open section?

 

[Parko]

Hard to know for sure afro cause in another thread he said he is helping a mate treat his enclosures for mites.... who knows, how long is a ball of string? If i say something in the woods and there is no woman to hear me am i still wrong?
Otherwise releasing those reptile mite eating mites(sorry forgot the scientific name) may work very well in an outdoor enclosure, once they've eaten all the mites they just pack their suitcases and go to mite heaven. They can be bought online and apparently work extremely well.

 

[zulu]

re My

Give this port macquarrie intergrade thing the flick its plain silly,the intergrades at kempsey dorrigo what we going to call them :lol: if you breed a port mac with a kempsey dorrigo do you get a intergrade or hybrid,save yourself little dicco its not to late,this type of insanity is preventable and manageable :lol: Yep pete you can see a bit of the cross in serp but most just come out like very yellow diamonds and everyones happy and none the wiser,they look better than most bush type diamonds.Not many that write them down on the books or sell as hybrids unless they have a really carpet look about them.

 

[NoOne]

Lol Sorry Dicco i may have got you dragged into an age old debate that is really very simple.

If we get rid of the word intergrade and just say Port macquarie python it explains everything. Crossing a carpet with a diamond doesn't make it a Port Macquarie python, just makes something which looks simillar but not identical and is genetically different to the morelia found in and around port macquarie. So simple what's the problem hell arrrrgh god damn it know what i mean dont try expand just keep it simple stupid sorry i'm losing the plot and getting too big for my boots now i'm gonna run thru the paddock naked screaming I'M FREE! I'M FREE! DON'T TRY TAME ME AND MAKE ME FEEL SHAME CAUSE I AM ONE WITH THE PADDOCK ONE I SAY ONE!! LOOK A SHEEP! COME HERE FLUFFY ONE COME HERE DAMN YOU ARE A FAST LITTLE ONE AINT YA?

HA HA aren't you sick of this yet Parko :lol:

This is my whole problem with Hybrids, people don't know the difference and by no fault of their own selling hybrids off as intergrades.

As Parko said you can't make an intergrade by breeding two different species or sub species.
In the kempsy Port Macquarie area Intergrades are found and have been breeding with intergrades for thousands of years, NO coastals, NO diamonds.
They are more than a color varient, they are like the start of a new sub species (obviously along way off that yet) but it's evolution in progress.
If you put a Port Mac python next to a Diamond/Coastal hybrid you will see the difference.
There is probably only one or two breeders of Port Macs one of whom i got my from and lives at Wachope.

So 90% of the time someone says they have an 'intergrade' it's probably a hybrid, because one of the breeders of real intergrades gave up breeding them because people didn't understand the difference and didn't want to bother with it anymore.

everytime the word intergrade comes up people show the miss information thats out there.
There is plenty of people who don't believe what is known fact with intergrades but those are people who have never even seen one nor had anything to do with them.

 

[Hickson]

Dicco,

I have to disagree with you.

A hybrid is the offspring of two different species.

An intergrade is the offspring of parents from the same species, but different subspecies, regardless of whether it happens naturally in the wild or only captivity. However, the term natural intergrade is often used to refer to an intergrade that occurs in the wild where the ranges of two species overlap.

As Diamonds and Coastals are both Morelia spilota, but different subspecies, their progeny are correctly termed intergrades.



Hix

 

[peterjohnson64]

I think I will simply call mine a "cross". And as for thr TOD. Yes, in this thread I weas referring to the outdoor cage. and no, Phil, I wouldn't be able to glad wrap it unfortunately. But those mitey bitey things sound cool. Now to just source them. And I don;t need to spray now, they are OK. I was merely asking so that I knew.

 

[Dicco]

Dicco,

I have to disagree with you.

A hybrid is the offspring of two different species.

An intergrade is the offspring of parents from the same species, but different subspecies, regardless of whether it happens naturally in the wild or only captivity. However, the term natural intergrade is often used to refer to an intergrade that occurs in the wild where the ranges of two species overlap.

As Diamonds and Coastals are both Morelia spilota, but different subspecies, their progeny are correctly termed intergrades.



Hix

Hix,
I have to disagree with you, hybrid has nothing to dif with species sub species ect, the definition of hybrid is a cross between two things, I'm sure Sdaji could enlighted us on it.

Intergrade is where one thing gradually comes together with another, or when one thing gradually changes from one thing, to another, the key word is gradually, why on earth the definition of words magicly change for snakes is beond me.

If two sub-species bred, their pronegy would be hybrids of two sub species. They would be the same species, but a hybrid of two different sub-species. The meanings of words do not change to suit reptile keepers.

 

[zulu]

re My

Yeh i want my mummy too browns!!

 

[Parko]

Awesome Hix'y you've managed to come up with another angle to debate the intergrade/hybrid debate. The argument was getting old and now it has a new angle, that is really good. Hence calling the ''natural intergrades'' from in and around Port macquarie simply ''Port macquarie intergrades'' makes the most sense for ease of understanding. And for Zulu, the Kempsey Dorrigo version are simply ''Kempsey Dorrigo intergrades''(or replace intergrade with python). Seems easy and accurate doesn't it? Unless i am wrong about something or other.

 

[BROWNS]

pmsfl

 

[Hickson]

The meanings of words do not change to suit reptile keepers.

Of course they do, this is an obvious case of it - the definitions I was giving you came from the zoo world, not specifically the herp world.

As long as 24 years ago I was discussing the threat intergrades pose to captive zoo conservation efforts, primarily because they are often hard to distinguish from pure-bred subspecies, and zoos cannot release intergrades into the wild as they will introduce different genetic material into wild populations. A classic example is Orangutans - two different subspecies Pongo pygmaeus pygmaeus from Borneo and P.p.abelli from Sumatra. Most of the Orangs in Australia are intergrades, and therefore useless as far as conservation goes which is why Adelaide and Perth brought in some Purebred Borneans about 15 years ago. Jersey Zoo in the UK has had purebred Bornean and Sumatrans since the 70's and had the foresight to keep them that way.

It is thought that more than 80% of all lions in captivity are intergrades (Panthera leo leo x P.l.persica). And most captive giraffes are intergrades, there are at least seven different subspecies and nobody really cared where they were from 50 years ago when they were collected for the zoos.

And another example of the meaning of words changing for reptile keepers - the herp world is the only group of people where the word 'albino' means something other than white.




Hix

 

[reptililian]

If i say something in the woods and there is no woman to hear me am i still wrong?
[/quote]
Ha ha ha, that made me laugh tonnes!!! :lol: This thread has been powerfully funny anyway, what with all the running through the paddock and everything, but that takes the cake!

Pete, thanks for starting it! She is a beautiful and inspiring animal.

 

[Hickson]

Hence calling the ''natural intergrades'' from in and around Port macquarie simply ''Port macquarie intergrades'' makes the most sense for ease of understanding.

If they are the way Steve described them, then I would suggest they may already be genetically distinct and worthy of their own subspecific status. Someone would have to look at their genetics and compare it to Diamond and Coastal genetics to see how much they vary.



Hix

 

[Dicco]

I can't understand(I'm not doubting it) why they use a word which definition is different to what they're using it to describe. I only see this as incorrect useage of a term? As the definition of the word intergrade does not match what they are describing?

To go off topic, I've always been curious about animals in zoos and what conservation value they would have if not pure, I wasn't sure if they would ignore reigonal varients and/or sub species for endangered species. For example if the Borneo population of Orangutans went extinct, would they bother introducing the Sumatran population or would they see it as pointless because the Sumatrans simply aren't the Borneo's and why put a different animal there to replace it seeing how they are not the same thing.

Just something I've been interested in, thanks for clearing that up.
Cheers

 

[Dicco]

hmm, I'm tossing up the idea of asking a question that might start another argument, I'm just not sure if it's worth it

 

[NoOne]

The meanings of words do not change to suit reptile keepers.

Of course they do, this is an obvious case of it - the definitions I was giving you came from the zoo world, not specifically the herp world.

As long as 24 years ago I was discussing the threat intergrades pose to captive zoo conservation efforts, primarily because they are often hard to distinguish from pure-bred subspecies, and zoos cannot release intergrades into the wild as they will introduce different genetic material into wild populations. A classic example is Orangutans - two different subspecies Pongo pygmaeus pygmaeus from Borneo and P.p.abelli from Sumatra. Most of the Orangs in Australia are intergrades, and therefore useless as far as conservation goes which is why Adelaide and Perth brought in some Purebred Borneans about 15 years ago. Jersey Zoo in the UK has had purebred Bornean and Sumatrans since the 70's and had the foresight to keep them that way.

It is thought that more than 80% of all lions in captivity are intergrades (Panthera leo leo x P.l.persica). And most captive giraffes are intergrades, there are at least seven different subspecies and nobody really cared where they were from 50 years ago when they were collected for the zoos.

And another example of the meaning of words changing for reptile keepers - the herp world is the only group of people where the word 'albino' means something other than white.




Hix

Lions, tiger and bears....oh my!

Who cares what they are 'termed' by the hob knobs at zoos. Fact remains if you breed a diamond with a carpet you don't have either you have a diamond cross carpet, am i missing the hard part somewhere?

 

[NoOne]

Hence calling the ''natural intergrades'' from in and around Port macquarie simply ''Port macquarie intergrades'' makes the most sense for ease of understanding.

If they are the way Steve described them, then I would suggest they may already be genetically distinct and worthy of their own subspecific status. Someone would have to look at their genetics and compare it to Diamond and Coastal genetics to see how much they vary.



Hix

That work was going on a couple of years back, dunno whats going on with it atm.
They are different and most who know about them say they should be a different sub species.