R.I.P Milo..
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waruikazi
Legendary
That's too bad Pugs. It always is difficult when you lose a pet.
SnakeWrangler
Very Well-Known Member
Hey Pugsly, I am sorry for your loss mate, I lost a young snake earlier this year so I know exactly how it feels. 
I would also like to say that I think assuming overfeeding is the problem is a big leap at the moment, 2 rats every 10 days is not overfeeding. How many people have fed even more than this and had snakes live long lives and produce lots of fertile eggs? This kind of regime has been suggested as a standard for the last 2.5 years that I have been here, wouldn't this mean that people who have followed it (probably most have) should be having snakes die left, right and center?
Once again, I am sorry for your loss mate.
I would also like to say that I think assuming overfeeding is the problem is a big leap at the moment, 2 rats every 10 days is not overfeeding. How many people have fed even more than this and had snakes live long lives and produce lots of fertile eggs? This kind of regime has been suggested as a standard for the last 2.5 years that I have been here, wouldn't this mean that people who have followed it (probably most have) should be having snakes die left, right and center?
Once again, I am sorry for your loss mate.
Again I agree, I feel very sorry for the loss of a beautiful animal but IF it died from a blood clot how can it be attributed to overfeeding without an autopsy ? From what I understand a vet hasn't looked at the animal and looking at the small section of body the snake did not appear fat, the little groove in the back still seemed visible.
What we have is people who are against 'powerfeeding' jumping up and down and telling us that is what killed the snake with zero proof. As SnakeWrangler says that amount of food for a heavy bodied snake is certainly not excessive.
If an autopsy is done and the findings show the snake died of something totally unrelated to it''s diet will everyone withdrawl their comments ? I doubt it.
What we have is people who are against 'powerfeeding' jumping up and down and telling us that is what killed the snake with zero proof. As SnakeWrangler says that amount of food for a heavy bodied snake is certainly not excessive.
If an autopsy is done and the findings show the snake died of something totally unrelated to it''s diet will everyone withdrawl their comments ? I doubt it.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Oh for christs's sake, here we go again. 2 rats every 10 days is far too much food for an 18 month old snake. Probably not every snake that gets "powerfed" (your word, not mine) will suffer bad consequences, but some will, and we should all try to minimise any potential harm to our animals from recognised threats. If you talk to any of the old timers in the game (those who keep individual animals for 20, 30 or more years), NONE of them ever feed their animals like this. And I'm NOT being critical of Steve at all - I was on the phone to him several times yesterday as this was evolving, so I know the background. I regard him as a good friend and we're only trying to help him at a difficult time. Boa, start another thread if you want to debate opinions again rather than offer useful advice. It is quite possible that powerfed snakes will suffer the same problems as humans in the short to medium term, and if you want to risk the long-term health of your valued animals, go ahead, no skin off my nose. Read the newspapers if you don't think obesity is a problem. I believe that any animal, and I include humans here, is under increased risk of long-term health problems if they are too fat. Any doctor or vet will confirm that.
I have seen 6 or 8 of those photos which Steve emailed to me last night, and Boa, if you are basing your opinion on the look of the snake externally, you are incorrect. There was an enormous amount of fat in the body cavity. 5 or 6 feet is WAY too long for an 18 month old carpet python, they would never get to that size at that age in the wild. Most of our captives do very little exercise, and get far too much food.
I know as much as anyone how tempting it is to feed, feed, feed when your snakes so much as move a bit in their cages - I love watching them eat, I've never tired of watching them eat in 40-odd years, but the way to overcome that temptation is to have a few (or many) and feed them all at different times so you can get your feeding fix without jeopardising the health of individual animals.
Jamie.
I have seen 6 or 8 of those photos which Steve emailed to me last night, and Boa, if you are basing your opinion on the look of the snake externally, you are incorrect. There was an enormous amount of fat in the body cavity. 5 or 6 feet is WAY too long for an 18 month old carpet python, they would never get to that size at that age in the wild. Most of our captives do very little exercise, and get far too much food.
I know as much as anyone how tempting it is to feed, feed, feed when your snakes so much as move a bit in their cages - I love watching them eat, I've never tired of watching them eat in 40-odd years, but the way to overcome that temptation is to have a few (or many) and feed them all at different times so you can get your feeding fix without jeopardising the health of individual animals.
Jamie.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
And Boa - YOU'VE assumed that we're anti powerfeeding, and blame it as the cause of death. It has only been SUGGESTED that it is a POSSIBLE cause. If you're pro powerfeeding that's fine, you seem to be an unsubstantiated expert on everything else.
Jamie.
Jamie.
Sorry to see your loss Pugs.
I have to agree with Boa, to me your bredli wasn't power fed, 5.5ft at 18months is overly large for a bredli and feeding it 2 medium rats every 10 days isn't power feeding by any means
Like Boa said bredli are chunky snakes and would carry more fat in general than other species do, snakes do need body fat like all animals, it's not bad thing unless it is excessive, but for a bredli i wouldn't think that yours had to much.
I would see what a vet has to say if you can though i would be suprised if they said it was from over feeding.
Sometimes snakes just die, i know of people who have had snakes just drop dead like your bredli, which were fine the previous day.
I knew one guy who had 2 BHPs die in the same month both were fine and were found dead in the cage, they were taken to the vet and no cause of death could be found.
I have to agree with Boa, to me your bredli wasn't power fed, 5.5ft at 18months is overly large for a bredli and feeding it 2 medium rats every 10 days isn't power feeding by any means
Like Boa said bredli are chunky snakes and would carry more fat in general than other species do, snakes do need body fat like all animals, it's not bad thing unless it is excessive, but for a bredli i wouldn't think that yours had to much.
I would see what a vet has to say if you can though i would be suprised if they said it was from over feeding.
Sometimes snakes just die, i know of people who have had snakes just drop dead like your bredli, which were fine the previous day.
I knew one guy who had 2 BHPs die in the same month both were fine and were found dead in the cage, they were taken to the vet and no cause of death could be found.
salebrosus
Very Well-Known Member
The pics posted by Pugsly have certainly opened my eyes to what i am doing drastically wrong- luckily i haven't lost an animal from this as yet- I have learnt from Pugsly's loss so my urge to feed my babies so often will have to settle. Jamie and i were only talking on Saturday about how awesome it is to watch them feed and hard it is not to want to chuck a feed in etc.....but i am definately putting my BHP on a diet so i don't go through what Pugsly has. Hugs to you Pugsly!
Simone.
Simone.
Sorry to hear of your loss ... but a valuable lesson learnt to many by the sounds of it. I hope that knowing milo's death may help other herpers learn the importance of our animals health may be a small consilation to you at this time. Thank-you for sharing this with us. RIP MIlo. :cry:
SnakeWrangler
Very Well-Known Member
Well Jamie I know for certain one person who I have purchased a few animals off and has been in the game for a long long time and he himself told me, to my face, what he thinks I should feed the animals I have bought from him, one of them being my bredli and he would tell you that your wrong...
I am not going to say names because I do not want to be responsible for anyone dragging his name through the mud, but he must be one lucky man to have never experienced the devastating effects which "powerfeeding" have...
I mean come on a vet hasn't even looked at this animal, but it must be powerfeeding... Even if the animal is overweight, too much fat around the heart, whatever, the fact that so animals have been raised on a diet like this and never had problems at any stage in the animals life cannot just be luck.
Pugsly, I am sorry for contributing to turning this thread into a debate about powerfeeding, once again, I am sorry for your loss.
I am not going to say names because I do not want to be responsible for anyone dragging his name through the mud, but he must be one lucky man to have never experienced the devastating effects which "powerfeeding" have...
I mean come on a vet hasn't even looked at this animal, but it must be powerfeeding... Even if the animal is overweight, too much fat around the heart, whatever, the fact that so animals have been raised on a diet like this and never had problems at any stage in the animals life cannot just be luck.
Pugsly, I am sorry for contributing to turning this thread into a debate about powerfeeding, once again, I am sorry for your loss.
Thank you, at least you and others can see what I am saying and not just clouded by thier personal opinions of me. I really couldn't care what people think of me, I know some don't like the fact that I say what I think and don't follow the crowd but that's the real world I guess.
I am not pro or anti power feeding Jamie, if I was pro then I would do it myself.
You say 2 rats every 10 days is too much, many others say it isn't but you are right ? Why ?
Ask anyone who has seen my animals if they look fat, even slightly fat.
I am not pro or anti power feeding Jamie, if I was pro then I would do it myself.
You say 2 rats every 10 days is too much, many others say it isn't but you are right ? Why ?
Ask anyone who has seen my animals if they look fat, even slightly fat.
dugadugabowbow said:
duga,- IMO feeding every 10 days is FAR to much, the animal will constantly have food, half digested food and waste in its tract at all times. VERY VERY bad IMO. Pythons that are feed this often tend to just lie around and digest food all the time, in the wild they will move around and further than most people think, which keeps them fit and lean. We should also remeber that the food wild bredli eat has a far less fat content that the captive rats that we tend to feed them, especially when the rats are breed in small tubs and get little exersize themselves.( the main reason i use bath tubs).
Put these to together and you can frequently have problems.
IMO after all food has been passed,(7-14 days, depending on time of year), the animals sould be left for days/weeks with an empty tract before being feed again.
Put these to together and you can frequently have problems.
IMO after all food has been passed,(7-14 days, depending on time of year), the animals sould be left for days/weeks with an empty tract before being feed again.
In a recent thread where you were selling BHP's they were a size consistant with animls that were well fed and were described as feeding like pigs. Now although you will obviously misconstrue this it is in no way an attack on you but what do you consider to be feeding like pigs in the context of young snakes ?
Well in general i feed my snakes smaller feeds more often because smaller feeds digest easier and the whole feed gets disgested.
After i feed my snakes in summer they are all crawling around they cages, looking for more food, they are far from inactive.
I haven't have any problems with snakes getting to fat or had any heath problems from over feeding.
IMO what i do is fine and i have been doing it that way for over 12years.
TB if you feed your snakes the amount you do how do you get the extremely fast growth rates you claim to, like your olives that breed at 3yrs of age?
I can't see how that is possible if you feed them small feeds once every 3 weeks or a month.
Not having a go just wondering if theres something i've missed in you posts about it?
After i feed my snakes in summer they are all crawling around they cages, looking for more food, they are far from inactive.
I haven't have any problems with snakes getting to fat or had any heath problems from over feeding.
IMO what i do is fine and i have been doing it that way for over 12years.
TB if you feed your snakes the amount you do how do you get the extremely fast growth rates you claim to, like your olives that breed at 3yrs of age?
I can't see how that is possible if you feed them small feeds once every 3 weeks or a month.
Not having a go just wondering if theres something i've missed in you posts about it?
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Feeding like pigs may not mean they are being fed like pigs Boa, it may just reflect a healthy interest in food. TB is CORRECT in all he says. Obesity reduces the expected life span of birds, dogs, cats, humans - the statistics are in on this. It may also, it's just a slight possibility... affect the length of a reptile's life... give it a bit of thought.
AND for the last time, I saw the photos Pugs sent to me yesteray after I suggested to him that he have a look inside the snake for such things as haemorrhage (which he found), and I commented on the (large) fat bodies in the abdominal cavity as being a POTENTIAL cause of a problem. Fat in other animals causes vascular and heart disease, why not reptiles?
Just because bredli are heavy bodied doesn't mean they should be obese - who amongst us has seen wild bredli? Anyone dealing with bhp's wildcaught in WA will know that wild snakes are very lean indeed, even what we'd call skinny. Compare them with what you see in cages - there is no comparison.
Jamie.
AND for the last time, I saw the photos Pugs sent to me yesteray after I suggested to him that he have a look inside the snake for such things as haemorrhage (which he found), and I commented on the (large) fat bodies in the abdominal cavity as being a POTENTIAL cause of a problem. Fat in other animals causes vascular and heart disease, why not reptiles?
Just because bredli are heavy bodied doesn't mean they should be obese - who amongst us has seen wild bredli? Anyone dealing with bhp's wildcaught in WA will know that wild snakes are very lean indeed, even what we'd call skinny. Compare them with what you see in cages - there is no comparison.
Jamie.
It does, absolutely without doubt cause problems.
I do have a problem however withthe concept that an 18 month old snake would have a heart attack due to obesity. An 18 month carpet is equivalent to about a 10 year old person? (Or a 9 month old dog if you like). It is essentially unheard of for obesity to cause heart attacks in children this age, even though stats show that over 50% of them are overweight and do not exercise. And we are talking hundreds of millions of children here.
Fat snakes are bad.
Being fat did not kill Steve's snake IMO.
Kersten
Very Well-Known Member
Hi Pugsly,
So sorry to hear about Milo, it's terrible to lose an animal that you love.
So sorry to hear about Milo, it's terrible to lose an animal that you love.
indicus
Very Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear mate; it's always sad when you lose something you love....
I lost a big beautiful dog tame jungle last year, from fatty liver....gravid with 20? plus eggs, so i was told.
I sent it to mate on breeding loan....poor bugger he felt terrible.....apparently they can live with it for a long time before it finally gets them; however stress can bring it on sooner.....in my case it was probably the stress of the move etc that finally did it for her.....sad part is she was killed with kindness... It's always a tough learning curb when you lose something....either way mate; keep ya chin up, it's sadly part and parcel when keeping wildlife.....
I lost a big beautiful dog tame jungle last year, from fatty liver....gravid with 20? plus eggs, so i was told.
I sent it to mate on breeding loan....poor bugger he felt terrible.....apparently they can live with it for a long time before it finally gets them; however stress can bring it on sooner.....in my case it was probably the stress of the move etc that finally did it for her.....sad part is she was killed with kindness... It's always a tough learning curb when you lose something....either way mate; keep ya chin up, it's sadly part and parcel when keeping wildlife.....
triptych_angel
Well-Known Member
Sorry for your loss Pugsly, It is a real shame.
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