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DDALDD

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G’day all,
As a new snake owner (which is currently refusing to feed!) I spent a lot of time on the net, reading books, talking to keepers and on this forum going through old threads researching the ins and outs of keeping reptiles in captivity. It seems that this hobby, like many others, is one of many divided opinions. On this day it’s the subject of handling that I hope others will help me out on.

I won’t lie, I was surprised to read that many veteran herpers do not handle their reptiles unless needed due to the belief (fact?) that reptiles stress easily and simply do not ever enjoy being handled. Others, in many cases also veterans of the hobby, argue quite strongly that snakes, once used to it, have no issue with being handled on a regular basis. Others still argue that their snakes LOVE being handled. Let’s ignore the latter category and focus on the two first shall we?

Some on this site argue that any handling of snakes when unnecessary is a form of animal abuse. It’s an extreme view based on what I’ve read but not an entirely uncommon one. The thing that surprises me is how vehemently people who oppose snake handling attack other experienced keepers who do. As a newbie to the reptile scene I’m a little confused at the vitriol of these opinions. Not because I think it’s the wrong position to have, but because how else are we going to share with the world that snakes are not killers in the night than to educate them by example. The best way is of course to show people. It’s a little difficult when you have a “don’t ever touch” policy.

In Feb when I last visited the Australian Reptile Park the showman there took the time to educate us about the dangers of touching snakes in the wild but also definitely took the time to promote reptile keeping as a hobby and specifically saying that snakes can be quite amenable to handling. He said this after having stuffed a BHP down his shirt saying it was “happy” there due to the heat. Yet, I’ve read on this site that anyone who thinks that snakes enjoy being held because of their proximity to a heat source (the body) is an idiot. The same show also involved kissing a saltie and draping a large python over a young girl’s neck and insisting it loved kids. All obvious showmanship aside, were his opinions not one of a professional herpetologist? I certainly took it to be and loved the show. Many reptile keepers at the parks/zoos I’ve visited since said that they handle their snakes regularly. I only tell this story to point out that people who research reptile keeping will not necessarily arrive at the same conclusion as others.

The reason for my long winded intro is this: is it true that if you have any expert knowledge of snakes you would never handle them just for the sake of it? Are people wrong if they want to handle their snakes occasionally? How can we expect people to become interested in the hobby if we keep the animals out of arms reach?
 
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I don't think it is wrong or anything, I know people who let there snakes lizards monitors etc lay around the house with them. When I first got mine I handled mine a fair bit say once a day or so. But now I'd prefer to watch it do its own thing and only get it out say three times a week for 10minutes. I'm sure some people will say its bad etc but If the snake isn't trying to digest and it is ok with it then I say why not?
 
I am so far from an expert its not funny, however I do have 17 yrs experience of keeping, catching and relocating snakes. I don't handle my snakes much but I probably do more than some. I handle my juvenile Bredli most days to expose them to sunlight (transferring them to an outdoor enclosure) however this is virtually the only reason (other than cage cleaning times). I do believe though that it is important to do a visual (thorough) for condition/health reasons.
This could turn out to be a very interesting forum.
 
I think the division of perspective is marked between those that keep reptiles as hobbyist, and those that keep reptiles as pets. The debate extends beyond the issue of 'to handle or not to handle', but to storage tub Vs naturalistic enclosures etc. and the difference in attitude is considerable.

Lizzie
 
There are heaps of variables, but i think many that keep snakes have no idea what sort of things will stress them out. I believe some snakes can definately handle handling with little to no stress, but often that isnt the case.
 
I'm sure some people will say its bad etc but If the snake isn't trying to digest and it is ok with it then I say why not?

Fair enough, the point being exactly that though, is that bad? As in, can someone with scientific knowledge of snakes tell you differently?

I do have 17 yrs experience of keeping, catching and relocating snakes.

17 years qualifies you as at least experienced! I guess I'd say, when you started out did you handle your captive snakes more than you do now? If you did, is it just a case of once people settling down and the novelty wearing off? In that case there's not much to worry about.

I think the division of perspective is marked between those that keep reptiles as hobbyist, and those that keep reptiles as pets. The debate extends beyond the issue of 'to handle or not to handle', but to storage tub Vs naturalistic enclosures etc. and the difference in attitude is considerable.
Lizzie

It does extend beyond just this specifically, I'm after what arguments are put forward on both sides to do with this issue. Is it actually wrong or not wrong or simply a matter or opinion?

I believe some snakes can definately handle handling with little to no stress, but often that isnt the case.

I'd agree with you...but I'm only going on my gut feeling here, I can't back it up.
 
OK, so we know where you stand. :)

Anyone who doesn't agree with handling? Would really like to hear another side.
 
V. interesting peeps, I would like to hear more on this as I'm a newbie myself and want to know how to treat my snakes.
 
I've only had my python for a few months, but I've started to see the signs of when he is stressed when handling and when he isn't. He doesn't seem to mind being handled, as if he was he'd defiantly show it.

I think it also depends on the snake. Just like people there are situations some like and other situations that others wouldn't want to do at all.

To have a blanked statement of "all snakes should never be handled" is kind of inconsistent with the many owners over the years who handle their snakes on a regular basis with no ill effects.
 
I would just like to applaud you for writing a thread with some substannce, which is both coherent and well written. There's a distinct lack of that on this site. :)
 
I dont see what's wrong with handling them i mean if they really didnt want to be handled they would show it in some way. you have to remember that captive snakes are totally different from wild captive have been in human contact there whole lives and wild ones haven't i think if your snake comes from a good bloodline it would have no probs handling where as if you get a snake from a crappy bloodline that is relativity new to captivity they wouldn't have built up that trust with humans. anyways thats my opinion probly docent make much sense but anyways
 
Mysnakes have no issue's with being handled, but I don't go taking them out. I prefer to leave my snakes alone.

I dont see what's wrong with handling them i mean if they really didnt want to be handled they would show it in some way.

They bite.
 
To have a blanked statement of "all snakes should never be handled" is kind of inconsistent with the many owners over the years who handle their snakes on a regular basis with no ill effects.

Sounds good.

I would just like to applaud you for writing a thread with some substannce, which is both coherent and well written. There's a distinct lack of that on this site. :)

Thanks. Let's see if it actually starts a good discussion.

I prefer to leave my snakes alone.

So be it, that's your preference. But are you against people taking their snakes out "to get them used to being handled"?
 
pete12 said:
if your snake comes from a good bloodline it would have no probs handling where as if you get a snake from a crappy bloodline that is relativity new to captivity they wouldn't have built up that trust with humans

There is absolutely no substantial evidence to support this fact. Some second generation snakes will tolerate handling just fine, and some will be snappy and resistant to it. Some fifth or sixth generation snakes will tolerate handling just as well as those first generation snakes, and some won't.

It think it depends completely upon the snake. For example, my spotted python was handled from day one, through feeds and digesting periods and everything, and now, she's so used to it, she automatically wraps around my hand when I go to pick her up out of her enclosure. Other the other hand, a friend's bredli is flighty and twitchy, and is so far a good handler, but she doesn't sit still.

I, for one, am all for handling as much as you want.
 
So be it, that's your preference. But are you against people taking their snakes out "to get them used to being handled"?

I'm not against the occasional handling of a snake for a check over, while cleaning its tub, or just to show it off to a mate(for very very short periods of time... as in minutes) etc etc... But I am against people taking there snakes out on a daily basis for extended periods of time just to mess about. No matter how much you kick and scream and yell that snakes like being handled the fact of the matter is they don't, they tolerate it. They aren't dogs, they aren't cat's and they aren't birds. They don't need affection so I don't see why people have the urge to give it to them?

Snakes are very simple animals. You piss one off and it'll bite, treat one well your chances of being bitten are less but there is still a chance.

I think people should think of Reptiles as they do fish, rather then companion animals. Something to be admired but not touched. But hey, there are still idiots out there that find the urge to handle fish aswell.
 
I'm interested to see the argument as to why snakes shouldn't be handled. I respect the right to the opinion - however, If it is presented as 'snakes don't like it or enjoy it they just tollerate it, so it shouldn't be done', it could quite easily be countered with the view that snakes probably don't like to be kept in captivity at all so why do it ? The reason of course is that we as owners/keepers get something out of it, which really is main the reason that people do handle their snakes (husbandry needs aside).

I think there is no doubt though that if a person is to handle their snakes it needs to always be done with respect for the animals wellbeing,and if the snake is showing signs of distress the poor thing needs to be left alone!
 
i find this thread one of the most interesting ive read on here in a while,that said i think it is similar to people that have dogs for example,i have 2 dog and they can almost do as they please they are allowed in they are allowed on the leather lounges they come and go as they please however this is just my opinion,i know alot of people who dont have their dogs inside let alone on the furniture.So how this relates to this thread you ask?Well its my furniture my dogs and my decission,as it is my snake and my decission whether i want to handle it or not.I believe i do know when enough is enough regarding handling of my snake but if his tounge is still flicking and he still seems curious as to his surroundings i say handle away
 
I'm not against the occasional handling of a snake for a check over, while cleaning its tub, or just to show it off to a mate(for very very short periods of time... as in minutes) etc etc... But I am against people taking there snakes out on a daily basis for extended periods of time just to mess about.

Based on what I've read up on, I'd certainly agree that they only tolerate it versus enjoying it. So when many articles and other reputable herpetologists point out that a species of python is a general rule amenable to handling, are they saying that they will tolerate handling. I'd also agree that if you're taking your snake out for hours each day you're most likely stressing it. But for 10-20mins every few days? Where's the line?

To add a little more to the discussion, snakes are obviously not mammals and cannot be read as if they are. Biting is surely not the only sign that a snake is stressed. I've read that rapid tongue flicking, constricting and rapid movement in general are signs that a snake is stressing. Is biting really the only real sign a snake is stressed?
 
I handle my python a few times a week. Sometimes only for short periods of times, longer if he falls asleep draped over my lap or neck. I think its good for him to be out and about every now and then. Even if he is only tolerating it, and not necessarily enjoying it, i still think its good for a change not to be cooped up in his box. Just as long as I am not doing more harm than good.

I also like to think my snake 'knows' me by sense of smell and identifies me as a non-threat, a friend - and while not exactly related to this thread, i see occasional handling as a kind of 'bonding' time, hehe. At least on my side anyway :lol:
 
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