Reptile Emotions Debate

[Jackrabbit]

I think if I were to say humans had emotions than I would have to say also that reptiles have emotions. If I were to say humans do not emotions I would thus say reptiles do not have emotions. Not to mention I will upset people by defining instinct and emotion as synonymous in meaning, yet separated by human bias and want to be above animals.

So how do you explain the absense of any learnings when humans are born?

When a snake is born it already knows everything it needs to know to survive, a human needs to be shown EVERYTHING.

A snake knows when it is in danger. We have to learn that something is not good for us whatever it might be. I believe reptiles at least show no emotion but act simply on instinct.

As for cats and dogs since they are mammals like us they have the ability to learn things and so can develop what we might call an emotional attachment. Show me a video of a snake that has learnt something new to their baser instincts. Cobras swaying to music in India doesn't count.

How does a snake show fear when it strikes at you even though it knows it can't eat you, or through the glass of its enclosure. It is displaying territorial threats and will do that as many times as needed until it thinks it has warded the threat off. In the wild a snake turns and runs from a bigger opponent not because it is scared of it but because it knows it has been bested by a superior animal, that is the way of the jungle. It isn't an emotion. It simply moves on to find an area it can control.

 

[longqi]

How does a snake show fear when it strikes at you even though it knows it can't eat you, or through the glass of its enclosure. It is displaying territorial threats and will do that as many times as needed until it thinks it has warded the threat off. In the wild a snake turns and runs from a bigger opponent not because it is scared of it but because it knows it has been bested by a superior animal, that is the way of the jungle. It isn't an emotion. It simply moves on to find an area it can control.[unquote]

Most people will have seen one idiot or another chasing big reticulated pythons, anacondas etc through the jungle on various TV shows
Those snakes invariably flee until grabbed or held
Only then will some very few turn and fight back
Yet they are the apex predator in that environment and could easily kill a lone human
So while I can believe the above statement for a smaller snake; I cannot believe that a giant retic or anaconda flees for any reason except fear

 

[Cockney_Red]

Wasnt all human instinct once based on survival??

Mine still is...

 

[Elapidae1]

@ Longirostris, RE cognitive thought, I'm not sure where I remember it from but some primates and maybe birds have been found to use tools for hunting/foraging. Wouldn't this require cognitive thought?

Jackrabbit. humans exhibit instinctive behaviour when born with a feeding response.

 

[fugawi]

I think the question should be "What is emotion" because I think that instinct vs emotion vs learned experience is wrong. I believe that emotion is the combination of both these things plus more, environmental stimuli, various senses etc. A newborn baby cries instinctively to get parental attention ie; hungry, change me, sick etc, but as they grow they will cry because they know mum will come, learned behaviour. If mum doesn't come, emotions like loneliness, sadness etc, if she does come, happiness etc.
I know that herps are different to mammals and have decreased brain capacity but this just means decreased emotional capacity, not zero. For instance, a friend has a W/C Beardie and at first it would instinctively flare up and due to it being cornered it would defend itself. After a few months, when you reached in to grab it, it wouldn't move, no flaring etc. I must conclude that it has learned it will not be harmed. Therefore it is suppressing its baser instincts of fight or flight when a perceived large human predator is near but when it is taken outside it seems very watchful when it sees or hears birds close by. Therefore humans = Ok, birds = potential predators. This means they have the capacity to learn. A beardie usually enjoys being stroked under the chin. Instinct would be to run or flare, learned experience is humans will not harm me. A beardie sometimes will lift its head and close both eyes when being stroked. Under the chin is a vunerable place for a beardie and closing its eyes shows trust when touching a vulnerable part and lifting its head is allowing better access, therefore showing it wants you to stroke it. This behaviour is against all instinct, it has learned to trust you and shows emotional response.

 

[splat868]

I think the question should be "What is emotion" because I think that instinct vs emotion vs learned experience is wrong. I believe that emotion is the combination of both these things plus more, environmental stimuli, various senses etc. A newborn baby cries instinctively to get parental attention ie; hungry, change me, sick etc, but as they grow they will cry because they know mum will come, learned behaviour. If mum doesn't come, emotions like loneliness, sadness etc, if she does come, happiness etc.
I know that herps are different to mammals and have decreased brain capacity but this just means decreased emotional capacity, not zero. For instance, a friend has a W/C Beardie and at first it would instinctively flare up and due to it being cornered it would defend itself. After a few months, when you reached in to grab it, it wouldn't move, no flaring etc. I must conclude that it has learned it will not be harmed. Therefore it is suppressing its baser instincts of fight or flight when a perceived large human predator is near but when it is taken outside it seems very watchful when it sees or hears birds close by. Therefore humans = Ok, birds = potential predators. This means they have the capacity to learn. A beardie usually enjoys being stroked under the chin. Instinct would be to run or flare, learned experience is humans will not harm me. A beardie sometimes will lift its head and close both eyes when being stroked. Under the chin is a vunerable place for a beardie and closing its eyes shows trust when touching a vulnerable part and lifting its head is allowing better access, therefore showing it wants you to stroke it. This behaviour is against all instinct, it has learned to trust you and shows emotional response.

This is exactly right,

these are the basic human emotions.

• fear
• joy
• love
• sadness
• surprise
• anger

Im sure many people on here could argue that their reptiles have displayed all or most of these.

Certainly fear and anger are very common.

Joy, surprise, sadness.

If a reptile is excited when a keeper comes close thinking that it is going to be fed, could this not be classed as happiness? - joy?

What do they mean by surprise? being startled- depend on what sort of surprise we are referring to I guess.

Sadness- surely sadness is related to depression- if an animal, including a reptile is kept in a sterile boring environment, it gets no stimulation, and can become listless and depressed.
all creatures require stimuli- reptiles do to, their mental state will suffer without it.

That just leaves love, and brings me back to the example of the shingleback who stays by its dead partner. who can say if this is love or just the urge to mate?

 

[cement]

The crux of this discussion is what constitutes emotions. As far as I am concerned emotions are feelings, feelings are irrational abstract thoughts.

This is my understanding as well.
To take it a bit further...

All life on this planet, if you consider everything together and no single unit of life separate, including man, has only one principle to obey. To survive.
How each separate unit(species), achieves this is the wonderful world of biologists and scientists.
This is not to say that separate units won't survive, in fact it is the ability to change with environmental changes that ensures survival. Lack of the ability to change or adapt will become extinction for that unit. Dinosaurs for example.

But when you look at the big picture (really big), and you see all life together, all different forms/species/physical energies all together we can understand how variation ensures survival. Survival of LIFE! Not just survival of man kind or reptiles but just life itself.

Pain and pleasure are the keys here. For all life forms. Pleasure is derived to guide the unit towards life. Pain is derived to guide the unit away from death.

We can break this down to separate species and see that sunbaking can be a pleasurable thing for a cold reptile. Eating can be pleasurable too, but these are just fulfilling needs. Why do you think sex is so pleasurable? :lol:

Most variations of life don't need emotions to survive.
And to go one step further, I would say emotions are in fact, a liability. :shock:

 

[longqi]

Splat
Although some may say that they have seen emotions in their reptiles how can they prove it?
Is anecdotal evidence enough to over ride scientific 'facts' that reptiles cannot have emotions because of the make up of their brains??

Devils Advocate is a great position

Cement
The number of suicides certainly points towards emotions probably being a liability in many cases

 

[fugawi]

I think some of the more scientific minded people are overthinking the question a little, concentrating of brain size and design. At this stage we still don't know the hows, whys or wheres about any critters brains, let alone a humans. We do know that a brain is not just a computer that thinks in 1 or 0 but is far more complex.

Just food for thought.

 

[hrafna]

both instinct and emotion are impacted by external stimuli correct? is a human saying i have emotions but animals have instinct, just a way for us to differentiate ourselves from other animals? is what we see as instinct a base form of emotion? all i know is that at the end of the day we can never really prove it.

 

[Cockney_Red]

Splat
Although some may say that they have seen emotions in their reptiles how can they prove it?
Is anecdotal evidence enough to over ride scientific 'facts' that reptiles cannot have emotions because of the make up of their brains??

Devils Advocate is a great position

Cement
The number of suicides certainly points towards emotions probably being a liability in many cases

Longqi, I luv your style, gotta be a bit of Pom in you....fine exponent of the subtle wind up...

 

[splat868]

Splat
Although some may say that they have seen emotions in their reptiles how can they prove it?
Is anecdotal evidence enough to over ride scientific 'facts' that reptiles cannot have emotions because of the make up of their brains??

Devils Advocate is a great position

Cement
The number of suicides certainly points towards emotions probably being a liability in many cases

Yes, I agree.

But, the real question is what emotions are we referring to.

Reptiles by classification do show most of the behaviours in my previous posts that are classed as human emotions.

But, do they show love is the big question for me.

You can break that down to further questions.

Do they show love within their own species?

Do they show love for Humans?

My argument has been all along that I believe that all animals show the emotions that they need to survive.

anger, fear, excitment, depression.

All of these things are natural to most species.
As said by others on this thread as well, emotions, combined with instincts is what drives the survivability of the species.
Many emotions can determine whether an individual animal gets to pass on its genes to the next generation by the way it interacts with its environement, threats and possible mates.

Love is a big question, but then what is love- its basic form is the need to proliferate the species, at least that is the main reason humans and animals are attracted to each other.

I do believe that reptiles are capable of recognition, and of knowing that the hand that feeds probably isnt going to present danger.
love for its keeper, I am undecided on.

 

[redlittlejim]

Best debAte ever. My head hurts

 

[fugawi]

Instincts could possibly be considered an emotional response. An animal does not say "I am food for this predator, therefore I will feed him with my body", they decide to use their survival instincts. Would they not be scared to die, an emotional response? Not purely instinctive, not purely emotional. I think there is a crossover here.

 

[Kurto]

I went to think about an intelligent response, but then I realized it's Friday and I have a life!!!

 

[fugawi]

As I said earlier, reptiles possibly have a reduced emotional response. Their idea of love would be different to our idea.

 

[Cockney_Red]

As I said earlier, reptiles possibly have a reduced emotional response. Their idea of love would be different to our idea.

They would have no"emotion" of " love "...just an " instinct " to procreate...

 

[longqi]

I went to think about an intelligent response, but then I realized it's Friday and I have a life!!!

Actually also Friday 13th
I wonder if Freddy is watching

 

[junglelover01]

i vote yes for sure....maybe not love/happiness like was mentioned before but fear and stress.... they're definately emotions. They maybe primal and instinctive but they're emotions all the same.

 

[hrafna]

Actually also Friday 13th
I wonder if Freddy is watching

i vote yes!