Reptile Emotions Debate

[longqi]

Now there are definitely at least two totally differing opinions on this topic

It would be great to get well thought out answers to this

As far as I can find there is zero scientific proof that they dont have emotions
There is also zero scientific proof that they do have emotions

So that leaves us with anecdotal and circumstantial evidence both of which are admissible in a court of law but possibly are not admissible in reptile forums

I suppose another simple way would be to say Yes or No
But a good debate is always fun and if you find me being the Devils Advocate on either side its ok
It will hopefully encourage good healthy discussion

 

[Kimberlyann]

I vote yes!! Definantly...

 

[hrafna]

i will respect anyone's opinion on this as there is no solid proof, but in my opinion i think that if an animal can get stressed, can feel pain, can feel hungry then yes, i believe they do have emotions. would a snake stress out if it was not capable of feeling emotion? if we are talking love, happiness and saddness then probably not those emotions, but a different variety of emotions than what you or i can feel!

 

[saximus]

This is one I always have difficulty with. I only have a few pythons but they all do seem to have different "personalities". I am particularly fond of my Bredli and if there is any one from my collection I would get out to show newbies it's him. However I don't think it's emotion. I think he just tolerates me better than the others. I don't think they have the brain capacity or the need for emotions. Instinct serves them perfectly well in the wild and speaking from an evolutionary perspective I don't see why they would need them

 

[elogov]

i will respect anyone's opinion on this as there is no solid proof, but in my opinion i think that if an animal can get stressed, can feel pain, can feel hungry then yes, i believe they do have emotions. would a snake stress out if it was not capable of feeling emotion? if we are talking love, happiness and saddness then probably not those emotions, but a different variety of emotions than what you or i can feel!

love it couldn't agree more!

 

[dihsmaj]

This is one I always have difficulty with. I only have a few pythons but they all do seem to have different "personalities". I am particularly fond of my Bredli and if there is any one from my collection I would get out to show newbies it's him. However I don't think it's emotion. I think he just tolerates me better than the others. I don't think they have the brain capacity or the need for emotions. Instinct serves them perfectly well in the wild and speaking from an evolutionary perspective I don't see why they would need them

Apparently Garter Snakes live with others?

 

[saximus]

i will respect anyone's opinion on this as there is no solid proof, but in my opinion i think that if an animal can get stressed, can feel pain, can feel hungry then yes, i believe they do have emotions. would a snake stress out if it was not capable of feeling emotion? if we are talking love, happiness and saddness then probably not those emotions, but a different variety of emotions than what you or i can feel!

I guess this requires an agreed upon definition of emotion before it can go further...
I would have put those things in the instinct thing rather than emotion

 

[splat868]

One argument for emotions..

The case where a shingleback will stay with a partner sometimes for days after the partner has been killed on the road, even to the point of nudging its dead partner to encourage it to move.

Is this emotion, or just the drive to breed?

Also, shinglebacks are unlikely to breed with another partner for a few years after losing an existing partner.

Could this also be classed as grieving?

I find there are many attributes that are similar to humans that it is difficult to think that they don't have emotions.

One study has actually shown that on occasions, a shingleback in the wild will leave its existing partner if that partner becomes too heavily infested with parasites. Kind of like a marriage breaking up because one person lets their appearance and or health deteriorate. lol

 

[hrafna]

I guess this requires an agreed upon definition of emotion before it can go further...
I would have put those things in the instinct thing rather than emotion

yes a definition would be needed. i think that hunting is an instinct, being hungry i feel is debatable, stress is def an emotion, so yes it all does come down to what we as an individual would define it all as!

One argument for emotions..

The case where a shingleback will stay with a partner sometimes for days after the partner has been killed on the road, even to the point of nudging its dead partner to encourage it to move.

Is this emotion, or just the drive to breed?

Also, shinglebacks are unlikely to breed with another partner for a few years after losing an existing partner.

Could this also be classed as grieving?

I find there are many attributes that are similar to humans that it is difficult to think that they don't have emotions.

One study has actually shown that on occasions, a shingleback in the wild will leave its existing partner if that partner becomes too heavily infested with parasites. Kind of like a marriage breaking up because one person lets their appearance and or health deteriorate. lol

your last point could also be looked at as a breeding partner finding something wrong with a partner and thus no longer a suitable mate? which is an instinctual response from many animals.

 

[longqi]

Excellent replies so far
So can we attempt to clarify what we will call emotions
Then what we will call instinct

 

[saximus]

Excellent replies so far
So can we attempt to clarify what we will call emotions
Then what we will call instinct

Until the inevitable downturn
I would call things like affection, happiness, sadness etc. emotion. Anything that would serve no useful purpose for a wild animal...

 

[splat868]

yes a definition would be needed. i think that hunting is an instinct, being hungry i feel is debatable, stress is def an emotion, so yes it all does come down to what we as an individual would define it all as!


your last point could also be looked at as a breeding partner finding something wrong with a partner and thus no longer a suitable mate? which is an instinctual response from many animals.

I agree, but is that not also the base reason that Humans move on in the same situation?

When you think about it, All animals including humans are genetically pre-programmed to propogate the species.

Why does a woman(or Man) cheat on their Partner? and why do people still find other people attractive when they are in a relationship?

 

[pharskie]

i would say without a doubt yes, my male and female coastals are in love. im sure of it. if something spooks my female, she quickly find the male she is kept with and after a breif coil and interaction they curl up together and go to sleep, BUT always, and i mean always with his head above and near hers. like he is in guard mode. it really is nice to seee them like this. ALSO, i can up my hand in the enclosure to do anything from a water change, move stuff around ext. and they dont care in the slightest, they will check to see whats goin on then back to sleep or basking, but if anyone else goes in the enclosure and im not there or at a distance where they cant taste me in the air, they his and s up there necks and get quite angry. Who needs a scientific answer when you have your own eyes

 

[hrafna]

i feel that emotion is anything that can impact a beings feelings, it is an instinct for an animal to act defense but it is emotion that puts that animal in that "mood"

 

[xxMelissaxx]

As far as I can find there is zero scientific proof that they dont have emotions
There is also zero scientific proof that they do have emotions

The structure of the brain of a reptile certainly doesn't definitively demonstrate that snakes do not have "emotions," but it does in fact make this scenario likely.

Considering that none of the studies undertaken have yielded any results that suggest that reptiles show "emotion" (emotional attachment to keepers etc.) is evidence within itself in my opinion.

in my opinion i think that if an animal can get stressed, can feel pain, can feel hungry then yes, i believe they do have emotions. would a snake stress out if it was not capable of feeling emotion?

You cannot draw parallels between hunger, pain, stress and emotion.

 

[Cockney_Red]

Of course they do, one of my Olives is still not speaking to me for forgetting her Birthday.....

 

[saximus]

Who needs a scientific answer when you have your own eyes

Anyone who wants an unbiased, rational explanation of the world. Don't take offence (that isn't how it was meant) but we, as irrational, emotional creatures tend to label what we don't understand in ways that we do because it is more comfortable

 

[longqi]

Wolves and other pack animals seem to show affection for other pack members??
Would this have any useful purpose??

 

[hrafna]

[/B]

I agree, but is that not also the base reason that Humans move on in the same situation?

When you think about it, All animals including humans are genetically pre-programmed to propogate the species.

Why does a woman(or Man) cheat on their Partner? and why do people still find other people attractive when they are in a relationship?

to a degree yes, we still have instincts that force our hands with certain choices, but as people we can't sense if someone is diabetic (for example) and i don't think many people would leave their "mate" because of it.

 

[saximus]

I would say that is because wolves have evolved as communal animals (kind of like us) and so needed to evolve a way for individuals to help themselves by adding to the community in a constructive manner (i.e. what we call emotion)