2012 and we're now OK with hybrids?

[wokka]

And it's not only with carpets. How many GTP breeders outcross Aussie natives. Why? $$$$$$$$$$$ there can't possibly be other reason.
Just like with carpets, those who bought these mongrels and bred from them are passing the progeny as pure native.
My opinion will never change, whether referring to carpets or GTPs, or whatever other species - if it's pure, keep it pure because soon we won't be able to find pure stock (like in the US) and we won't trust anyone. That's the downside of it.

My observation is that gtp buyers are chasing "pretty" animals rather than a particular locality. Pretty and cheap, that's what they want!

 

[Kurto]

i'd just like to raise one simple point...

All of these so called morelia "hybrids" (which is the completely wrong term) share the same DNA. Go figure...

It's just land bridges that separate different localities.. And even Morelia s harisoni which is separated by a large body of water has the same DNA.

How can you hybrid the same species to the same species?

 

[junglepython2]

i'd just like to raise one simple point...

All of these so called morelia "hybrids" (which is the completely wrong term) share the same DNA. Go figure...

It's just land bridges that separate different localities.. And even Morelia s harisoni which is separated by a large body of water has the same DNA.

How can you hybrid the same species to the same species?

Read post 38.

 

[Waterrat]

My observation is that gtp buyers are chasing "pretty" animals rather than a particular locality. Pretty and cheap, that's what they want!

I don't dispute that wokka and I have no problem with it. I just think there should be breeders specialising in pure lines, that's not to say they can't breed morphs as well. What I don't like is people sacrificing pure-line stock to make a quick buck. Also, for the life of me, I can't see how a native GTP x whatever would improve the "prettiness". Maybe with carpets it's a different matter.

 

[Kurto]

And it's not only with carpets. How many GTP breeders outcross Aussie natives. Why? $$$$$$$$$$$ there can't possibly be other reason.
Just like with carpets, those who bought these mongrels and bred from them are passing the progeny as pure native.
My opinion will never change, whether referring to carpets or GTPs, or whatever other species - if it's pure, keep it pure because soon we won't be able to find pure stock (like in the US) and we won't trust anyone. That's the downside of it.

GTP's until recently were particularly expensive.. And to top it off, Aussie lines, which where only available from a handful of breeders where even more expensive.. When brought my greens I would have been happy to buy local specimens if they weren't 2.5x the price..

I can see why in Aust everything has been been outcrossed.

Read post 38.

Um, I did. And it changed my life.. Thanks, my eyes are now open.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

And it's not only with carpets. How many GTP breeders outcross Aussie natives. Why? $$$$$$$$$$$ there can't possibly be other reason.
Just like with carpets, those who bought these mongrels and bred from them are passing the progeny as pure native.
My opinion will never change, whether referring to carpets or GTPs, or whatever other species - if it's pure, keep it pure because soon we won't be able to find pure stock (like in the US) and we won't trust anyone. That's the downside of it.

Michael. It is a shame alright if people pass off something as pure stock when its not pure ?
But by some peoples logic ? , If you Michael bred from your mixed locality GTP ?

Then your supposed to be muddying the captive bred GTP lines even further ? But these lines have been around long before you owned them etc Its simple to breed and then sell offspring and to be open about what bloodlines are in each offspring..
You breed stunning true aussie GTPs and oh what a big drama was made of your first lot of offspring being available ? You were attacked because how could you prove 100% that your stock were pure aussie genetics ? Its usually the same people over and over again posting there negitive comments .
The only people with the integrity problem are the ones who prefer to keep attacking others over the choice of reptiles that each keeper has a right to keep. These rights are governed by each states fauna guidlines ...

I know if i purchased a pair of pure aussie greens off you Michael. i would not doubt the purity ?
Or if i purchased a pair of mixed bloodline GTP , thats exactly what they would be .

There are people with integrity in our hobby ...
But there are also those who are out to make a fast buck like you said etc
Thats a shame ...

 

[zulu]

Integrity of some of the larger breeders ??? Jason...
Love this comment ...

Why you dont trust them LOL

 

[Waterrat]

Roger, I breed both now, natives and non-natives. The natives for their purity and my interests in their ecology and the mongrels (pardon me the expression, I think it's a cute name) for money (hopefully). I am not ashamed to say that openly.
Anyway, to keep on the subject, in my opinion the wider acceptance of hybrids is influenced by new people entering the hobby. Many of them don't care because many of them are not interested in anything else but to have a pet snake and of course the nicer, weirder, unusual it is, the better.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Have you got any peer reviewed literature that confirms all carpets are the same species with those couple of exceptions?
I wrote a reply a few years back that got me an infraction but it went along the lines of monkeys and humans share 98% of the same dna so going by that logic some people would have no problems breeding with a chimp.I also added that this so called paper was written by a biology student and was never peer reviewed,I'm also not sure it was ever published.

So your saying that genetics paper is not correct . Do you have proof the paper is floored science ?
AS far as i know the whole thing was done at Adelaide university ? Under the guidence of a PHD ?

 

[Ramsayi]

So your saying that genetics paper is not correct . Do you have proof the paper is floored science ?
AS far as i know the whole thing was done at Adelaide university ? Under the guidence of a PHD ?

I'm saying I don't know what the paper says and even if it was published/peer reviewed and am asking if anyone has it and has actually read it.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Roger, I breed both now, natives and non-natives. The natives for their purity and my interests in their ecology and the mongrels (pardon me the expression, I think it's a cute name) for money (hopefully). I am not ashamed to say that openly.
Anyway, to keep on the subject, in my opinion the wider acceptance of hybrids is influenced by new people entering the hobby. Many of them don't care because many of them are not interested in anything else but to have a pet snake and of course the nicer, weirder, unusual it is, the better.

Yes Michael i agree .
But its like ive always said .
That herpetology and herperculturists have very different ethics . Thats great if you ask me .
But what i dont like is others constantly attacking peoples choices in the hobby. etc
We have minds of our own to pick and choose etc.
I respect others choices..
And heaven forbid if a person changes their mind on a issue lol

Each to their own etc ..

 

[Waterrat]

I'm saying I don't know what the paper says and even if it was published/peer reviewed and am asking if anyone has it and has actually read it.

I haven't read it, but was told by the author's colleagues that it's a solid piece of work. The researcher was a PhD student supervised by Steve Donnellan. He didn't finish / submit his theses because he got a job offer he couldn't refuse. I hope the paper will see the light of the day one day.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Kurto
Some localities have reptiles that are very different looking creatures (as we all very well know).
So therefore DNA cannot be identical to some degree, simple, or am I missing something?

 

[Ramsayi]

I haven't read it, but was told by the author's colleagues that it's a solid piece of work. The researcher was a PhD student supervised by Steve Donnellan. He didn't finish / submit his theses because he got a job offer he couldn't refuse. I hope the paper will see the light of the day one day.

It may very well be a solid piece of work,it may also be flawed and that is the point I am trying to make.

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Did anyone ever wonder why know 2 carpet pythons are exactly the same colour or pattern ?
Its because their colour and patterns are polygenic . These patterns and colours are moulded my nature to be survival traits within each habitat.
Max and min size are also polygenic traits and so are clutch sizes etc.
Just because a carpet python has a different pattern or colour or max size does not means the every single carpet is genetically different to its parent or siblings ? or does it ?
The difference is only skin deep .... ie patterns and colour phase variations for their current habitat.
Polygenic genetics gives the carpet python the best chance of survival in the wild.

Look at the wolf.
A single species that has been domesticated and moulded by human beings for our own benifit ?
From poodles to great danes.
Totally different in looks and size IE = POLYGENIC TRAITS etc ,,, but are still the same species ?

If you understand the nature polygenic triats and their influence on the animals that have these genes .
You would understand that these changes are on the exterior of a species mostly as survival traits ?
And not so much on the species DNA level .

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Okay lets for one second put the DNA senario a side. If there are polygenenic inheritable differeneces why would anyone what to polute that in captivity, because they can?, because they see it as their right?. Thats not how I would like the hobby going, thats for sure.

 

[ramzee86]

I don't know how people can disagree that Carpet Pythons are pretty much all the same..
Ever see natural Diamond Coastal integrades - you can't tell which one it really is.... or natural Coastal Jungle integrades - Can't rally tell what it is?
On the east coast it slowly transforms from diamond to coastal to jungle.... from black (diamonds)to black & Brown (Coastals) to Black and Yellow (Jungles) and then B&W ('Jullaten' jungles)

I don't know just my theory

 

[Waterrat]

PO's last sentence: "BUT it seems we've all jumped ship and are openly supporting this now?"

May I extend the question: Do any ethics still exist in this hobby (they do in herpetology)? Are we now openly supporting unethical, unnatural modification of what once used to be a beautiful, and fit (in Darwinian terms) wildlife?

 

[wokka]

PO's last sentence: "BUT it seems we've all jumped ship and are openly supporting this now?"

May I extend the question: Do any ethics still exist in this hobby (they do in herpetology)? Are we now openly supporting unethical, unnatural modification of what once used to be a beautiful, and fit (in Darwinian terms) wildlife?

What do you mean by unethical, unnatural modification?

 

[GeckoJosh]

Do many fish or bird breeders have a strong opinion on this subject as well?