Egg thief

[Australis]

I can't see that peoples misconceptions or ignorance can be put down to "pro hybrid" members. If people think an albino comes about through cross breeding it is just a lack of knowledge.

No its not your fault, but your pics seem to mislead people who are ignorant, it seems alot of newer keepers think Morphs are Crossed animals, and you cant have Morphs that is pure....

I wasnt attacking, and im sure you have seen what i saying, i just think showing Morph crosses as examples of crosses in general, confuses alot of people

 

[Oskorei]

but its not the cross breeding thats the problem its the dishonesty of the people who try to pass them off as being pure.

 

[Australis]

but its not the cross breeding thats the problem its the dishonesty of the people who try to pass them off as being pure.

But the fact remains, if the hybrid wasnt created in the first place, it would be a problem..


Ive even seen clear Diamond cross sold as other types of crosses, by some.......

Geez, Even hybrids being sold as hybrids arent honest..lol

 

[steve6610]

hi dave, sorry mate but my scanner is stuffed, so i will type what the rules say, i know some might think i could lie as to what it says, but i'm sure other qld members can back me up,
the below is word for word from the wildlife management guidelines that all qlders should have recieved with their licence,

"a person who holds a recreactional wildlife licence may breed animals under the licence. it is usually an offence to knowingly breed a hybrid or mutation of a protected animal; however, the holder of a recreational wildlife licence may breed a mutation, but not a hybrid of the following:
a controlled bird;
a commercial bird;
a recreational bird;
the holder must not breed a mutation or hybrid of a restricted bird or of any species of reptile or amphibian.

a person who holds a recreational wildlife licence may buy or accept, sell or give away animals under the licence. however, the person is not allowed to keep or use an animal kept under a recreational wildlife licence for a commercial purpose.

a person who holds a recreational wildlife licence must not keep or use wildlife under the licence for a commercial purpose. the meaning of "commercial purpose" is stated in the regulation. in simple terms, a person who holds a recreational wildlife licence must not keep or use protected wildlife as part of a business or otherwise use it in a business - like manner.

the meaning of commercial purposes include the following things;
operating under a buisness or trading name under which the person buys or sells protected animals;
importing wildlife into the state for the main purpose of selling it;
keeping or using wildlife in a way that makes you liable to pay tax for the activity under the law of the commonwealth; "

i know it's long and boring, and some info doesn't concern reptile keepers but i didn't want to be accused of cutting bits out to benifit myself.........

the only other thing i will add is that no where does it say you can't cross breed, it states you can't breed hybrids, in my opinion a hybrid is 2 different species like a horse and donkey, and as all morelia are meant to be recorded in qld under one heading "morelia" it can't be illegal to breed a coastal with a darwin, if you choose to, but it is illegal to breed for morphs,
we might disagree, but it's in black and white...................

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Steve6610
I have just read what you have posted, but where does it say that it is illegal to breed morphs ?
I think you may be confusing morphs with mutations?
Also when you are dealing with an act you can only use the meaning of words as is written for that act for example: In the Queensland Nature Conservation act ( it may be called some different , I can't remember) the word sold has the same meaning as to give away for the purpose of that act.
This is why it is important to read what they deem as a mutation etc.
What you read though sounds like it is guidelines or perhaps regulations. This does not necessarily mean that they are enforceable.
A friend of mine actually imported reptiles with no import permit and was charged.
He won the case on the grounds that as his licence had written on it, licensed to import, export, as did all recreational licenses at the time and therefore he was covered under the act of illegally importing wildlife. The fact that he never used a movement permit becomes irrelevant even though this was a clear condition under the regulations.
After that case they removed those words from those licenses.
Thanks for posting it up any way.


Cheers Dave

 

[ad]

the only other thing i will add is that no where does it say you can't cross breed, it states you can't breed hybrids, in my opinion a hybrid is 2 different species like a horse and donkey, and as all morelia are meant to be recorded in qld under one heading "morelia" it can't be illegal to breed a coastal with a darwin, if you choose to, but it is illegal to breed for morphs,
we might disagree, but it's in black and white...................

So Steve, how do you keep hybrids and pures all as Morelia?
If someone wants to buy a jungle from you - what paperwork do you send them? McDowelli?
Are you saying you will classify them differently on the movement advice than your record book?
Can you show where it says "meant to be recorded as Morelia"

 

[Retic]

OK given that straight from the horses mouth Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles Darwins are genetically identical surely even a cross is pure ? Bear in mind I am only talking genetically.
I am TOTALLY against people selling any sort of 'cross' as anything but what it is.

Question is will people try and flog them off as pure though, and how will we even know for sure, especially with the other thread stating that the DNA is pretty much identical.

 

[ad]

OK given that straight from the horses mouth Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles Darwins are genetically identical surely even a cross is pure ? Bear in mind I am only talking genetically.
I am TOTALLY against people selling any sort of 'cross' as anything but what it is.

In your mind a cross may be pure - the majority of herpers can and do recognize the sub-species of morelia. Until your 'horses mouth' releases a proven scientific paper that is acted on by the epa and legislation drawn, it is not valid.
(or of course until Steve shows us where the epa have disregarded sub-species and want us to write all our sub-species as Morelia - how does this work for Pogona etc Steve?)

 

[ad]

Herping has been going on for decades in Australia - virtually every subspecies has been interbred before - Why arent these lines developed? Why arent they common?

Because - a jungle still looks nicer in pure form.

Show me a pic of a nice hybrid - not jag or chondro crossed - straight Morelia sub-species. Steve's juvie is a 'nice' snake? - is this the pinnacle of hybrids?

 

[Retic]

Steve, yes you are right all my Jungles, Darwins and Coastals are all under variegata in my record book because that was the name on the movement advice or import permit. I can't change that name in my book or it wouldn't tally. No sub species names are required or specified.

 

[Australis]

So no one has sold you animals recorded under sub species?

 

[junglist*]

i didnt actually see any of the albino snakes when i was in iwakuni hiking and herping in july. But i did see almost the cutest little brown python about 20 cm long, with distinctly triangular head. Just passing by stright across the track and back into the underbrush. Tried to catcht he little bugger, but damn if it didnt move at almost light speed!!!!

Saw one a little bigger from a little further away though.

As for the guy who has claimed that i made myself look a fool, can you please refer to the crux of my quiestion?? Please explain genetically the difference between an intergrade and a crossbreed. Is it just that you cannot do it?? IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE GENETICALLY.

Ethically is a different scenario, though i dont think that there would be so many problems if it can be done honestly and openly. It will purely mean that those specimens which are pure bred (though i hate the term) will be identifiable easily. I also think that the problem may relate to people not necessarily being intentionaly dishonest, but possibly being honest despite working on misinformation.

Think about genetic variation within even a species and the different phenotyopes exhibited by diffrent populations of the same species at different locations. The kangaroo island tigers are a beautiful exaplme of this. The liasis fuscus variation between australian and papuan populations.

 

[Retic]

I have received Darwins, Coastals and Jungles under Carpet Python, Morelia spilota, Morelia spilota variegata and Jungle Carpet.

So no one has sold you animals recorded under sub species?

 

[Retic]

There are no pythons in Japan, what you saw sounds like a Mamushi or some other Viper. Probably just as well you didn't grab it

i didnt actually see any of the albino snakes when i was in iwakuni hiking and herping in july. But i did see almost the cutest little brown python about 20 cm long, with distinctly triangular head. Just passing by stright across the track and back into the underbrush. Tried to catcht he little bugger, but damn if it didnt move at almost light speed!!!!

Saw one a little bigger from a little further away though.

 

[steve6610]

ok dave, then whats a mutation? you see my point, even when it's in black and white you twist it around to suit yourselves, i'm sorry if you think what i wrote is bull,

as for the recording morelia under the same page, it was a member here that pointed it out to me, some might know him, his user name is "geckodan" ( i think, sorry if it wasn't you dan ) so to all those that want to call me a lier or don't believe it, you are also calling a well known keeper a lier, again i have also checked with the epa and yes you can keep all morelia under the one species, as for the other reptiles, i haven't checked them out because it doesn't interest me, so adam how about you ring epa up and ask them,

just for the record, all my morelias are recorded under different names, coastal, jungle, darwin and so on, but what i'm saying is you can record them under the same name,

all i'm going to say is believe what you want, i have shown you the rules i was talking about and you again twisted them to suit yourselves so in the end you will still believe what you want and i'll believe what i want,

 

[rexs1]

At the end of the day, almost everyone that raves about these crosses has no experience?

Steve I can see how you get line breeding of pure sub sp. and crosses confused.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Steve6610
How have I twisted any thing around my friend? I have simply asked you questions.
And again I shall ask, where in your post of the regulations does it mention morphs?
As for your question to me,” What is a mutation “ I am not really sure and this is why I think it is important to get the definition from Parks and Wildlife.
Further more, why assume that I perhaps think that what you have posted is bull? I do not.
This is not about what you believe or I believe.
It is about clarifying the rules. Have your self a cup of coffee and smile.

Cheers Dave

 

[Retic]

mutation n. (myoo-TAY-shun)
Change in a gene or chromosome resulting in a new trait or characteristic that can be inherited. Mutation can be a source of beneficial genetic variation, or it can be neutral or harmful in effect.

So I can only assume that would encompass albinos, melanistic and hypo animals. Using NPWS own words breeding these animals is against the rules, of course if they are happy to bend the rules then I also assume their other rules are just as flexible ?
Dave, like you I am only looking at clarification.

 

[Lucas]

I would love to see a Diamond x Bredli, that would be an interesting mix,

or a GTP cross Diamond so we could have a Green and yellow diamond , a real ozie snake

They are a good looking mix

 

[Australis]

Perhaps a gallery of Hybrids could be greated, so those who wonder what these beasts looking like will be able to see the result, with out further hybrid matings to see them...