GTP Prices

[chondrogreen]

Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens more and more, the older and less smarter I get), are the Chondros kept and bred by URS not imports that made it onto the books through the amnesty? I am certainly no GTP expert but by comparing what they are selling (hatchlings born at around 8 grams), this is not consistent with the numbers I have heard are standard for legitimate Aussie GTP's (around 13-15gms). My point being, what are you calling a legitimate market versus a black market? As far as I understand, the only truly "legitimate" GTP's in Australia would be the legally collected and subsequently bred, Aussie GTP's available through Michael Cermak, Adrian Hemens, and anyone else who has successfully bred from their lines. As I said, I don't know who else has run lines of legitimate Greens from non imported stock but of course there may be more. .

The animals Tim has were deemed legal.
Therefore by buying from him you are not paying someone to collect/smuggle/import.

 

[boxhead]

This is not to say that forums like these are no good. As Wokka said, if you are capable of sorting the rubbish from the goods, there is a wealth of extremely useful information available here. If, however, people continue to insist on slagging the men and women who have spent years and years learning and fine tuning their parts of the herp hobby, soon there will be naught left but these useless armchair "experts" to learn from (on the internet that is). That is a worry. Not for myself, but for the animals dependant on their care.[/QUOTE] Maybe a another reason to get rid of post counts .

 

[URS]

The animals Tim has were deemed legal.
Therefore by buying from him you are not paying someone to collect/smuggle/import.

This is true they are legal python as state by a QLD court, we purchase our original 6 GTP’s from a breeder in QLD many years ago and this was before the amnesty in NSW. The hundreds we have bred and sold over the years will Match the DNA that was taken by EPA in QLD many years ago.

 

[Waterrat]

The animals Tim has were deemed legal.
Therefore by buying from him you are not paying someone to collect/smuggle/import.

All reptiles that are registered by the relevant fauna authorities are deemed legal whether they their origins go to the amnesty, permitted collection or they are descendants from pre- protection days (as I believe Tim's GTPs are).
If YOU acquire a reptile legally, i.e. from a registered collection on a Movement Advice / Permit, so you can prove that the animal was legally obtained - it is deemed legal. If you acquired the animal from an illegal source, e.g. wild caught, imported, etc., and get investigated - you are the victim, not the villain and you can exercise your legal rights.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I think the price drop for chondros reflects a couple of things - a massive smuggling program in the past 2-3 years (up until then 'chondros' were 'chondros', now there are Biaks and a whole range of identified 'locale' animals reflecting their PNG/Indonesian heritage. This HAS to be a recent phenomenon...

And then the recently published works of Greg Maxwell (The Complete Chondro etc, and specialist websites, including his, associated with chondros) have made breeding a far more reliable prospect for chondro keepers. As recently as 5-6 years ago, chondro breeding in Australia was a very hit and miss affair, but now... even I can do it lol!

As far as Tim at URS goes, he's been breeding them for years, he has a large inventory of animals, and in a good season produces lots of babies. The price he sells them at does not reflect any lack of quality, it's simply a pragmatic response to the fact that he has a lot of high maintenance babies to quit, and it's best for him if they can go as soon as they're ready. If you can imagine having in excess of 100 finicky babies to get started and established in the first months of their lives, you would understand that by the time they're feeding well and ready to go, you are well and truly ready to let them go...

I don't know of any private breeders successfully selling non-native hatchling GTPs for $3-3.5K. They might advertise them for that, but they'd be dreaming.

J.

 

[chondrogreen]

All reptiles that are registered by the relevant fauna authorities are deemed legal whether they their origins go to the amnesty, permitted collection or they are descendants from pre- protection days (as I believe Tim's GTPs are).
If YOU acquire a reptile legally, i.e. from a registered collection on a Movement Advice / Permit, so you can prove that the animal was legally obtained - it is deemed legal. If you acquired the animal from an illegal source, e.g. wild caught, imported, etc., and get investigated - you are the victim, not the villain and you can exercise your legal rights.

Not all animals on licence are so legit.
My point is buying any known smuggled exotic lines that have been written up in books by dodgey keepers is feeding the black market.
Sure they are on licence and deemed legal in that little loop hole BUT I don't think we as a so called passionate conservationalist hobby should be condoning the act of smuggling wildlife by paying for these animals and feeding those illegal characters.

IMO your a villian if you know better, and enough documentation is available for those to make themselves aware before purchase. I know I did my research before parting with money and didn't settle for any of the new cheap ones (even if some were producing mite phaze lol). We even have locale specific exotics these days as Pythoninfinite said. Only a few years ago everything was muddied, even in the US and UK haha

 

[Bushfire]

Correct me if I'm wrong (it happens more and more, the older and less smarter I get), are the Chondros kept and bred by URS not imports that made it onto the books through the amnesty? I am certainly no GTP expert but by comparing what they are selling (hatchlings born at around 8 grams), this is not consistent with the numbers I have heard are standard for legitimate Aussie GTP's (around 13-15gms). My point being, what are you calling a legitimate market versus a black market? As far as I understand, the only truly "legitimate" GTP's in Australia would be the legally collected and subsequently bred, Aussie GTP's available through Michael Cermak, Adrian Hemens, and anyone else who has successfully bred from their lines. As I said, I don't know who else has run lines of legitimate Greens from non imported stock but of course there may be more.

The situation is far more complicated than black and white. GTPs in captivity in Australia didnt start out with native collections. Even in the 70s and 80s there was a high percentage of import GTPs legally kept. So how did they become legal? Simple, zoos imported GTPs legally and then sold or swapped excess young onto private hands. As the term locality prue was pretty rarely used, if you got any male and female you would breed them together. After all a GTP is still a GTP and given they commanded very high $$, who wouldn't. Even if you want to dismiss all the 1996-97 ammesty imported GTPs and their desendents from being legitimate, there are still plenty of desendents about from those brought or swapped legally from zoo collections. So much so, that we will never truly know what numbers were smuggled in or continue to be smuggled in, we do have legal and illegal imports. We just have to accept that if an animal comes with proper paperwork it is a legitimate animal and if not then its black market. Its the same with every other species really.

 

[Waterrat]

condrogreen, how would you know which are being smuggled? How do you recognise a dodgey keeper?

Do you really believe that those wanting to buy their GTP for as little as possible will put their conservationist's hats on? ..... nice thoughts but far from reality.

 

[Snake_Whisperer]

This is true they are legal python as state by a QLD court, we purchase our original 6 GTP’s from a breeder in QLD many years ago and this was before the amnesty in NSW. The hundreds we have bred and sold over the years will Match the DNA that was taken by EPA in QLD many years ago.

Thanks for the info! As I am a prospective GTP buyer, this is the kind of information that is useful both to myself and the online herp community in general. As was discussed earlier, sorting the wheat from the chaff as far as forum posts go, it is good to have guys like Tim around, who have put in the hard yards, long before the internet was used as it is today, to make animals like this available.

All reptiles that are registered by the relevant fauna authorities are deemed legal whether they their origins go to the amnesty, permitted collection or they are descendants from pre- protection days (as I believe Tim's GTPs are).
If YOU acquire a reptile legally, i.e. from a registered collection on a Movement Advice / Permit, so you can prove that the animal was legally obtained - it is deemed legal. If you acquired the animal from an illegal source, e.g. wild caught, imported, etc., and get investigated - you are the victim, not the villain and you can exercise your legal rights.

I did, in my post, take for granted that many people purchase animals off permit. Unfortunately, one of the very first things I learned when I started out, was how easy it is for dishonest people to cook their books. It is good to know that there are still a few genuine sources for quality animals around.

I think the price drop for chondros reflects a couple of things - a massive smuggling program in the past 2-3 years (up until then 'chondros' were 'chondros', now there are Biaks and a whole range of identified 'locale' animals reflecting their PNG/Indonesian heritage. This HAS to be a recent phenomenon...

And then the recently published works of Greg Maxwell (The Complete Chondro etc, and specialist websites, including his, associated with chondros) have made breeding a far more reliable prospect for chondro keepers. As recently as 5-6 years ago, chondro breeding in Australia was a very hit and miss affair, but now... even I can do it lol!

As far as Tim at URS goes, he's been breeding them for years, he has a large inventory of animals, and in a good season produces lots of babies. The price he sells them at does not reflect any lack of quality, it's simply a pragmatic response to the fact that he has a lot of high maintenance babies to quit, and it's best for him if they can go as soon as they're ready. If you can imagine having in excess of 100 finicky babies to get started and established in the first months of their lives, you would understand that by the time they're feeding well and ready to go, you are well and truly ready to let them go...

I don't know of any private breeders successfully selling non-native hatchling GTPs for $3-3.5K. They might advertise them for that, but they'd be dreaming.

J.

Thanks P.I. This goes a long way in answering the OP's question on pricing. Decades of breeding has produced a massive supply. Of course the numbers of smuggled animals will make an impact as well but at the end of the day, quality, legitimate GTPs are simply readily available.

 

[Frustration]

hugely helpful stuff!
thanks

 

[chondrogreen]

condrogreen, how would you know which are being smuggled? How do you recognise a dodgey keeper?

Well in my case I purchased mostly from a seller who purchased from Tim directly.
When researching breeders I confronted alot and tried to trace the pedigree back from breeder to breeder, and alot couldn't oblidge (why not they had 30k waved in their face)

Do you really believe that those wanting to buy their GTP for as little as possible will put their conservationist's hats on? ..... nice thoughts but far from reality.

Of course not, but that puts a whole damper on the "we are only in it for the love of the animal not the money theory aye. I'd expect members to purchase cheap exotic illegal animals if they can get away with it, simply because it has already happened & history repeats itself. The blackmarket is flourishing more so then the legiteamate one concerning GTP's im afraid

Horses for courses.
I'd prefer Tms lines and chose to choose my sellers after deep scrutineering.
Now I can only hope another confiscation session will go down because I know my animals history.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

The reptile market always has the potential to go from famine to feast in a very short time - pythons especially are highly fecund animals, and the numbers increase exponentially once the breeding technicalities for a species are sorted. I think that this has happened with most species and morphs in the past few years, and it's the fickle nature of the market that dictates what is desired and what's not. Hence the move to designer animals - it caters for those who want something different, an increasing demand these days. If you don't get in on the ground floor though, you stand an almost 100% chance of doing your dough.

It would be nice if GTPS returned a bit more than they do these days, but my biggest kicks still come from the sheer beauty of them, and the thrill of being able to breed them from time-to-time. Unlike my wife, I'm not complaining lol!

J.

 

[Waterrat]

Now I can only hope another confiscation session will go down because I know my animals history.

That is a dangerous and provocative wish - I think you stand alone on that one brother.

 

[chondrogreen]

It would be nice if GTPS returned a bit more than they do these days, but my biggest kicks still come from the sheer beauty of them, and the thrill of being able to breed them from time-to-time. Unlike my wife, I'm not complaining lol!

J.

I preferred the rareity over the money.
Just the fact I had animals everyone else craved was enough joy for me (like trophy status lol)
These days they are as common in households as childreni are, and not far off the same price either haha!

That is a dangerous and provocative wish - I think you stand alone on that one brother.

That would be expected also. Too many animals in collections that arn't from legal lines.
Of course they fear it lol. More reason they should have researched harder IMO

 

[Waterrat]

Since you are so by the book and preach what others should and shouldn't do, tell us - do you have your GTPs registered in your book and with the NWS authority as native or as exotic?
Please try to be clear on this.

 

[chondrogreen]

Since you are so by the book and preach what others should and shouldn't do, tell us - do you have your GTPs registered in your book and with the NWS authority as native or as exotic?
Please try to be clear on this.

Is there an option in our books for specifics?
They are down as just GTP. And my collection is open to testing should it hit the fan again.

I am not preaching nada btw, just giving my opinion and some healthy advice not to suport smugglers. I am sorry if I come across as an arogant pompous for not being a fan of illegal poaching. Anyway, It is no secret my collection came from Tim Mensforths animals deemed 100% legal and DNA tested through the amnesty....How about your non native collection Michael. Out of interest can you tell us a bit about it?. Do you know their history? I am curious.

 

[Waterrat]

Is there an option in our books for specifics?
They are down as just GTP. And my collection is open to testing should it hit the fan again.

I am not preaching nada btw, just giving my opinion and some healthy advice not to suport smugglers. I am sorry if I come across as an arogant pompous for not being a fan of illegal poaching. Anyway, It is no secret my collection came from Tim Mensforths animals deemed 100% legal and DNA tested through the amnesty....How about your non native collection Michael. Out of interest can you tell us a bit about it?. Do you know their history? I am curious.

Yes, if are in possession of an exotic reptile you are obliged to have that animal registered as such, no matter where it came from. In Qld, if you keep native GTPs, you must have an endorsement on your Wildlife Licence that allows you to keep Restricted Reptiles. To keep exotic GTPs, you must have another endorsement that covers International Reptile (GTP). I have both. The history of my exotic GTPs? They were bred by the Snake Farmer. I saw the female in their possession long before she was mature enough to reproduce and also have seen her mating and with the clutch of eggs. ALL PERFECTLY LEGAL.

Now, I don't dispute that URS' GTPs are perfectly legal but they are not native. It's your (the new owner's) responsibility to declare them for what they are or "as you feel fit". Have you got yours registered as native or exotic? I told you all about my side of things, now you can answer my simple question.

 

[chondrogreen]

Yes, if are in possession of an exotic reptile you are obliged to have that animal registered as such, no matter where it came from. In Qld, if you keep native GTPs, you must have an endorsement on your Wildlife Licence that allows you to keep Restricted Reptiles. To keep exotic GTPs, you must have another endorsement that covers International Reptile (GTP). I have both. The history of my exotic GTPs? They were bred by the Snake Farmer. I saw the female in their possession long before she was mature enough to reproduce and also have seen her mating and with the clutch of eggs. ALL PERFECTLY LEGAL.

Now, I don't dispute that URS' GTPs are perfectly legal but they are not native. It's your (the new owner's) responsibility to declare them for what they are or "as you feel fit". Have you got yours registered as native or exotic? I told you all about my side of things, now you can answer my simple question.

As I said, I have them down as simply GTP.
There is no endorsement in NSW as far as I know.
My collection has been inspected & my books signed by a decc inspector.

 

[Waterrat]

As I said, I have them down as simply GTP.
There is no endorsement in NSW as far as I know.
My collection has been inspected & my books signed by a decc inspector.

Neat way to dodge the question.

 

[chondrogreen]

I answered it for you. Twice infact.
I do not have any endorsement, they are down as simply GTP, neither native nor exotic.
I do not even know of any endorsement. Now that is 3 times I have answered you.