I'm reaching for my flame suit.

[elapid68]

Many people whinge and carry on about a certain person venomoiding his animals. People complain that he mutilates the animal by removing the venom glands and it shortens their life span, they need the venom to properly digest food items etc etc. There are a lot of complaints about his methods of venomoiding and there seems to be a lot of people carrying on about how venomous snakes should have venom glands and people are butchers for having them removed.
I've handled many of his venomoids and they seem quite heathy and growing nicely.
That being said, don't get me wrong. I don't believe in venomoiding. I wouldn't dream of having it done to any of my critters, even my nut case Taipans.
It seems everytime someone mentions this particular person, everyone, and most haven't even meet him, jump on the bandwagon and mouth off about him and some of the comments are extremely nasty and down rite appalling.

I've just found out from another thread that ARP has pits full of venomoids.

My question is this (excluding the medical procedures itself) why do people carry on about one particular person and yet no one says anything about ARP. Why is that?????

 

[AustHerps]

Answer: Ignorance.

I've handled a few venomoids, met said person several times, and even received hatchies that have come from venomoid parents. That said, just like you, I don't support the venomoiding of snakes for general use. On a side note, I think that they may (and only may - I'm undecided) have a place in training vets and other like medical staff to deal with them. Back on track - yes, the comments made half-wittedly by some are most certainly appalling. I seem to recall one very intelligent argument by a gentleman who's key point was that the man looks weird. Go figure.

Having met the man on quite a few occasions now, I've always found him to be friendly, intelligible, and most definitely passionate about animals. The only problem I find is that when you get him on the phone, you'd better have a spare hour on hand. Of all of his animals that I've witnessed/handled, all appeared healthy, active, alert, etc. And of what I've seen of their living conditions, what can I say - better than most I've seen. A keen point to note, as mentioned earlier - the venomoids breed, so they're obviously not too upset.

Despite having known said person for a while, I only recently (this Friday) had the pleasure of witnessing a Snakebusters show at Cranbourne Shopping Center. To the amazement of many, he doesn't run around the stage showing everyone his magical snake-whispering powers (unlike many a documentary I've seen, where one Australian gentleman runs around with a 6 foot pair of tongs, and bandages strapped at the ready on his wrists - I pity those snakes more than I pity those that are encompassed in this thread!). Right throughout the whole show, great emphasis is put on the fact that no snake in Victoria should ever be approached, unless by an experienced venomous snake handler. He also emphasises that his animals are captive born and bred, regularly handled, and somewhat accustomed to large crowds, and that they are far different than their wild counterparts.

Why don't people kick up a stink about the ARP? Because there's no leader to follow.

Austy.

 

[ihaveherps]

Austy, no-one is doubting the mans passion, I mean the guy has tried to change the scientific name of every species he has every touched after a family member, lol.

The real crux of the matter is his methods, tools and level of vetrinary training... plus the fact that ARP doesnt routinely hand them out to children for photo's. I am personally all for Snake exhibitors bringing out unruly specimens of endemic species, so that the younger audience can learn to identify them, and take notice of the respect that the exhibitor shows the animal. The hard time hots can give exhibitors can help the younger audiences understand the possible threats from such animals, without the mixed messages of telling children never to touch them before they line up for photo's holding one.

 

[Hickson]

John Weigel said last month that the ARP does not have any venemoids and never has. He has no idea where this rumour came from, but he's not happy about it.



Hix

Oops!!!!!

I got that wrong. See my post below for the correction.

Hix

 

[Jozz]

I have only recently discovered information about this practice, and subsequently read alot about this person, and what he does. I have read alot of the remarks made about him, and I agree a lot are rude and un-called for. To me they mostly seem to be people following the hype, because his name is out there, and at the end of the day, the practice is always going to be controversial.

I think it does have it's place, and from what I have read, anyone who actually knows this person has nothing bad to say about him, his animals, or the treatment of them.

People really need to research things before they comment, and not as you said 'jump on the bandwagon'. If they do disagree in what he does, then make comment, but there's a way to do it without being rude and nasty IMO.

 

[Wrasse]

I don't know him. I couldn't care if he looks weird or talks your ear off. I have no personal opinion on the man himself.

I don't agree with his method of surgery.

I do agree whole heartedly with ihaveherps comments, so consider them repeated here.

 

[Tatelina]

Pardon me for sidetracking....who/what is ARP?

 

[Aslan]

Australian Reptile Park

 

[MDPython]

Australian Reptile Park

 

[koubee]

I agree with Austy.

*backs away quietly*

 

[FAY]

I have never met the man......have read about him and thought that what he did wasn't very good...but a few people put me straight about him and I shouldn't judge.
But having met a lot of the so 'called' respected herp people I found that some (not all) want to bag out anyone who is in some sort of competition with them. It seems to be the same in all hobbies being it dog breeding, horse breeding etc etc

 

[Snake Catcher Victoria]

ok, ray has a total of roughly 30 voided snakes,all breeding and feeding,crapping and fighting.i dont think he has done an operation for a few years now.
i think that compared to the amount of pain and suffering that thousands of snakes endure due to ignorant rednecks,shoddy care by private keepers and some zoos,habitat degradation etc,that what he done is negligable in terms of cruelty.
tha petition is not about the operation,they say, they only have a problem with the way ray does,hes not a vet,blah blah.
personaly,id like to see him use anesthetic,for some reason he cant,someting to do with cold torper and blood flow..,but thats only part of the issue.
Im not a vet,but
i can dehorn a steer,very painful,
and cut its balls off with a rusty pocket knife,ow,cut the meat of a sheeps bum,debeak chicken etc etc...all with out being a vet and with out anesthetic..you have to do all these things when you work with animals on a day to day basis.they say it cant digest food properly, they are wrong...at least when it comes to australian elapids.they say the gland can grow back causing the snake to become venomous again..meh,maybe it the op wasnt done correctly,they say the snake feels pain, and also say things like
"how would you like it".
this anthropomorphising attitude is an indication of ignorance,and a lot of rays knockers arnt ignorant,.
the anti ray ferver stems from deeper things which are privy to a few people.

 

[Bryony]

I agree with most of what people are saying.
I also have not met him and I don't think I know enough to have a complete opinion on his practices. He and his colleagues/friends are the only ones who are seeing it first hand and the results from it.

That being said, rudeness, name calling and sly comments shouldn't be exchanged, especially if you do not know the person and have not done sufficient research into their practices.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if you use your opinion incorrectly and start abusing people directly, your opinion is made invalid.

Bandwagoning is a bad habit like smoking; you know its bad but can't help wanting a part in it.
Call the quit line today!

 

[Greebo]

I have met "he who puts puppy milk in his coffee" and found him to be a bit odd. I also have opinions about his behaviour in recent years but I don't feel the need to join the lynch mob every time his name is mentioned.
Our hobby is an alternative one and not mainstream. Perhaps this is the reason there are quite a few ...eccentric people involved in this hobby.

 

[MrBredli]

I don't like him because i despise arrogant people, regardless of whether they mutilate snakes or not.

 

[Hickson]

My bad.

Just spoke to John Weigel and I don't know who I was listening to, but it wasn't John. He has just confirmed that the ARP did have some venemoids back in the 90s, but they don't have any now. They were kept in the snake pits, as there were concerns about people reaching in and being bitten by an elapid.

A vet conducted the operations at the time, different procedure to whats-his-face, and they haven't performed the operation in over ten years.

Once again, my apologies. I guess I must have drunk too much Coke on the day and misunderstood John.



Hix

 

[salebrosus]

elapid68, You@#@$#@$#@% $#%%$^^%&* #$%#^%$^&

Just kidding, mate. Your absolutely right. I certainly didn't know ARP had venomoids. I'm certainly not a fan of the practice either.
I met him when he did a talk at MacHerps one night some years back and he was nice enough but i found him slightly odd. But then again people say i'm odd too.

Simone.

 

[waruikazi]

I seem to recall one very intelligent argument by a gentleman who's key point was that the man looks weird. Go figure.
Austy.

That comment was made by me, well at least i was one of those people lol. That comment wasn't my argument it was an observation i made of his behaviour and comments he made after watching a snake busters (is that what it's called?) video.

The problem i have with him is the way he just hands snakes, even though they are venemoids (which i have a probelm with also) to kids. I have done reptile displays at shows. I never ever hand snakes out and definately do not go up and drape them around kids necks. Snakes are unpredictable animals because they can not be tamed. Let alone that kids are so incredibly impressionable, they will look at a snake in the wild and think that snake is safe to play with and pick it up.

Do you still have a problem with my statement?

 

[moosenoose]

My personal opinions are these:

1) It is unnecessary to produce such animals as they serve “no purpose” except bolstering a persons ego.
2) These operations – for whatever logical reason – should have only been performed by a qualified vet!
3) I’ve seen Rays shows from time to time – not once does he mention that the snakes are voids – but merely behave because of how he keeps them.
4) I think handing out things like voided Colletts and Tigers to young kids is irresponsible without mentioning what they are and what’s been done to make them safe.
5) Elapids – but more so Vipers (in the states) – from what I have been told, can regenerate poorly, partially and incorrectly “removed” venom glands to make the voided snake venomous again.
6) If the RSPCA or similar were truly serious about the protection of animals – then this practice of voiding animals should be outlawed – it’s that simple!

Which leads me to the most important point:

7) No man should have to eat an entire raw lettuce in a Herp meeting without the addition of some form of condiment!


In addition: I have not spoken to Raymond, so I can’t say I know him at all. I wouldn’t shrug the opportunity to talk with him and would show him every courtesy should that happen. I don’t have anything personal against the man and from everything I’ve been told, from the people who know him, is that he is a very helpful, friendly and knowledgeable person to anyone who asks for his help.

Unfortunately though, all it takes is for someone to do something stupid to really get the attention of people, and their backs up. Dodgy home surgery and blatantly describing the techniques of performing these sorts of operations verbally and visually, to me, comes under the heading of stupid. While Raymond may have healthy looking animals that appear to be thriving – how many did he lose before he “perfected” his self taught home veterinary skills? He is not a vet, so it’s understandable that people have filed his actions under the heading of blatant animal cruelty. What if I told you I performed home surgery on my dog to stop him from barking??- you’d be outraged!

Cheers,
Luke.

 

[Julie-anne]

I myself have never met him or even seen one of his shows, therefore i have no personal opinion about what he does and have nothing at all against him.

However, at work the other day (i work with school age kids 6-12yrs) we had a guy from WIRES bring in his herps and educate the kids about snakes and first aid for bites etc.
Every time he tried to tell the kids not to touch wild snakes for such and such reason someone would say "but when Snakebusters came to our scout camp he was holding *insert name of whichever venomous snake we were talking about here* and they weren't doing anything to him".
It's hard to try and teach kids that snakes should be respected and left alone when they see other people holding the ones they're told to keep away from.

I've never seen a Snakebusters show myself so i'm not sure if he warns the veiwers that his snakes have been operated on (i'm sure he would) but perhaps this should be emphasised more as most kids don't remember names, speeches and words, they mostly just remember what they see and when they see someone holding a death adder (or whatever) they think its ok.