I'm reaching for my flame suit.

[elapid68]

My bad.

Just spoke to John Weigel and I don't know who I was listening to, but it wasn't John. He has just confirmed that the ARP did have some venemoids back in the 90s, but they don't have any now. They were kept in the snake pits, as there were concerns about people reaching in and being bitten by an elapid.



Hix

Yes, I got an email earlier today from someone confirming APS doesn't have venomoids. So now the record on that has been set straight.

elapid68, You@#@$#@$#@% $#%%$^^%&* #$%#^%$^&

Love you to Simone :lol::lol::lol:

Just kidding, mate. Your absolutely right. I certainly didn't know ARP had venomoids. I'm certainly not a fan of the practice either.
I met him when he did a talk at MacHerps one night some years back and he was nice enough but i found him slightly odd. But then again people say i'm odd too.

Simone.

Ok, Rays' odd. I'm not disputing that. But who isn't. The world would be too boring if we each didn't bring a bit of oddness into it.

Which leads me to the most important point:

7) No man should have to eat an entire raw lettuce in a Herp meeting without the addition of some form of condiment!


Cheers,
Luke.

Yes Luke, this has been the subject of many debates :lol::lol:



Thanks to all for posting non emotional, thought out comments. I was wondering how long it would take for it to become a "I hate Ray, the snake mutilating so and so" thread. Thankfully it didn't degenerate into that.

 

[Robbo]

Yes, I got an email earlier today from someone confirming APS doesn't have venomoids. So now the record on that has been set straight.
.

glad to hear APS dosnt have any venomoids

i personally wouldnt want to keep venomoids
and i dont like the fact that he is not a vet performing the surgery

 

[baxtor]

. Snakes are unpredictable animals because they can not be tamed. ?

I might be heading a bit off topic but what defines "tamed" and who says they can't be.

 

[AustHerps]

Waruikazi, whether said statement is classed by you as a point, or by me as an argument, it doesn't need to be expressed. I don't think anyone has the right to comment on the appearance of others. Full stop.

Regarding whether or not Ray's a licensed vet (keeping in mind, as expressed above, that I don't support voiding snakes in general) I'd like to make a few points which might be worth considering.

1. Just because someone is classified as a licensed vet doesn't mean that that person is more knowledgeable in the correct procedures for dealing with reptiles. If that were the case, any of us could take our herps to any local vet and get adequate treatment. My local vet was more than happy to supply me with drugs without inspecting my animals rather than have me bring a not-so-well taipan in. Legal? (On a side note: After that experience, I did receive an automatically generated letter asking me to bring "Taipan" in for his dental check. I didn't.)

2. Venomoiding of snakes is somewhat of a medical breakthrough - an area still to be explored. How many herps died under Ray's knife before he started to get it right? Who knows? As with any breakthrough operation - plenty of animals/people die whilst doctors practice. Would it matter less if the animals died under the knife of a vet?

Cheers,
Austy.

 

[stencorp69]

I don't like him because i despise arrogant people, regardless of whether they mutilate snakes or not.

Are you talking into a mirror here???? Read your thread before posting the hypocracy must be blinding

 

[elapid68]

On a side note: After that experience, I did receive an automatically generated letter asking me to bring "Taipan" in for his dental check. I didn't.

Cheers,
Austy.

Why not???? I would have. The look on the vets face would've been priceless :lol::lol::lol:

 

[cyclamen]

hehe, i would hav taken the taipan in for a teeth check to austy LOL
mel

 

[FAY]

Ray Hoser is not the only exhibitor to be irresponsible (in regards to draping vens over kids shoulders etc)

A few years back when we first started keeping reptiles, myself and Garth went to ARP, a chap was doing the reptile show, his name was Michael and was telling kids to talk their parents into getting some snakes so if they breed them they can make x amount of $$$$$$$!

Now that is what I call irresponsible!!!!!

I just hope that they have stopped saying things like that.

 

[cyclamen]

Ray Hoser is not the only exhibitor to be irresponsible (in regards to draping vens over kids shoulders etc)

A few years back when we first started keeping reptiles, myself and Garth went to ARP, a chap was doing the reptile show, his name was Michael and was telling kids to talk their parents into getting some snakes so if they breed them they can make x amount of $$$$$$$!

Now that is what I call irresponsible!!!!!

hehe, i know him quite well. he lives next to my best mate. lol.

 

[junglist*]

An interesting idea bout the venomoiding of snakes by vets to train them int he handling etc of vens. Not sure if te theory is sound, but an interesting idea none the less.

If you're going tokeep one and train with it though, wouldnt you want to be force to respect it?

 

[AustHerps]

An interesting idea bout the venomoiding of snakes by vets to train them int he handling etc of vens. Not sure if te theory is sound, but an interesting idea none the less.

If you're going tokeep one and train with it though, wouldnt you want to be force to respect it?

Mmm I certainly don't think that venomoids are a good place to start to learn ven handling for private keepers. That comment was more geared at aiding some reptile vets to take it to the next level in terms of dealing with elapids too, as well as lowering possible insurance costs (maybe??)

Re the dental check: I didn't have a licence at the time, and I don' t think the taxi driver would have liked the idea any more than the vet lol

Cheers,
Austy.

 

[moosenoose]

2. Venomoiding of snakes is somewhat of a medical breakthrough - an area still to be explored. How many herps died under Ray's knife before he started to get it right? Who knows? As with any breakthrough operation - plenty of animals/people die whilst doctors practice. Would it matter less if the animals died under the knife of a vet?

Perhaps not, but still to my original statement - what's the point of producing them? There is no ethical reason for their creation. Maybe Raymond, in all seriousness should be commended for finally "getting it right”, I don't know, but what I would love to know is this: what sort of person would think to get one of their pet snakes out and “see” if they could surgically remove its venom glands??? An even bigger question is: How long do you place them in the fridge to drop their metabolism to the point where they A) Aren’t killed and B) Sedated to the point where they'd feel no pain for the “duration” of the procedure. These questions aren’t aimed at being nasty, they are logically thought out and viable points which really beg to be answered.

 

[waruikazi]

Waruikazi, whether said statement is classed by you as a point, or by me as an argument, it doesn't need to be expressed. I don't think anyone has the right to comment on the appearance of others. Full stop. Austy.

As i said Austy that comment was not meant to be about his appearance it was meant to be about his actions. If you are still offended by this i apologise, if Ray is... toughen up.

If people do controversial things, they need to expect to cop some kind of backlash over it. If they can't handle that, then they shouldn't do it. I would expect Ray hoser would know understand this, if he doesn't then there are bigger problems with him than i expected.

 

[-Peter]

My question is this (excluding the medical procedures itself) why do people carry on about one particular person and yet no one says anything about ARP. Why is that?????

So you try to validate it by removing one of the main issues thats caused the commotion. It is the procedure; as performed by Ray hoser that is the issue.
As to ARPs venomoids, its been mentioned in posts on here before. Because they were done by a highly qualified vet with much herp experience in a clean surgery without the aid of rubber bands nailed to a piece of wood and with the use of anesthetic and pain relief drugs it probably wasnt seen as important or comparative to the real issue.

 

[waruikazi]

Either way i see it the same as docking tails. Don't agree with it JMO.

 

[NaughtyByNature]

I too see it like a docking tale subject BUT until it becomes illegal then it comes down to everyone to their own opinion
.

Peace be with you all

 

[Isis]

How on earth can anyone stand up for someone who mutilates animals for his own financial gain. I too have spoken to kids that have seen his Snakebusters show and have come away thinging that its ok to try and pick up any snake.
Yes thay have banned docking tails, mulesing sheep there has been standards put in place for emasculating cattle,sheep and horses. The RSPCA still continue to fight against De Beaking and cage farms for chickens. We really need to start to push to stop this "man" from performing his Illegal and barbaric mutilation of elapids.
I cannot understand how you people can stick up for his practices and yes I am talking about the venomoiding he does not him personally as I have never met him and never wish too as I dont ever want to have anything to do with someone that publicly promotes and condones illegal and cruel practices.

 

[waruikazi]

Now now Isis that isn't the subject here, please stay on topic.

This thread is about why people have a problem with what Raymond Hoser does EXCEPT all of the barbaric, immoral and cruel things he does... WHAT A CROCK!

 

[HerpDoc]

Essentially this debate has 2 main issues and I will try to answer them as succinctly as possible but for more information refer to my article that is posted on the petition or I can email it to those that are interested.

1. The way in which the procedure is performed - Ray does not provide any analgesia or anaesthesia which means that animals can still fell pain as the surgery is being performed. Cold torpor does not reduce pain sensation and vets regularly perform oral procedures without excessive bleeding or use specific surgical techniques to minimise this so this part of the argument is fundamentally flawed as well. To compare this procedure with de-horning of cattle or mulesing of sheep is rediculous. It is the recommendation of the Australian Veterinary Association that these be performed under some form of anaesthesia but in some cases particularly that of mulesing is not always practical. However, the short-term discomfort from these procedures is far preferable to the long-term agony experienced by a sheep as it is slowly eaten alive by maggots.

2. The ethics of why the procedure is performed - the reality is that venomous reptiles are dangerous animals and if they cannot be handled safely without the risk of harm to either the animal itself or the handler then they should not be kept. Despite what Ray argues (all of which is anecdotal mind you) there is absolutely no scientific evidence to suggest that manual restraint, tubing or head pinning causes excessive stress on animals and until there is scientific peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary then this remains the most humane way of handling these animals. We should not use deficiencies in skills or husbandry as an excuse to inflict un-warranted pain and suffering on an animal.

No matter how you spin it this practice is disgusting and abhorrent and should be outlawed immediately.

 

[krissy78]

Call me crazy but is there any real point in purchasing venomous snakes just to remove their venom glands. To me there is no logic in this. If you want a non venomous snake why not just buy a python.