I'm reaching for my flame suit.

[Isis]

Finally an intelligent and scientific arguement against Hoser. The sad thing is there is still a lot of people on here that will support him and his practices out of sheer stupity an arogance.
But then again its the same people that dont like taking their animals to the vet when they are sick ect..........
Silly me I forgot they know better.........lol

 

[elapid68]

So you try to validate it by removing one of the main issues thats caused the commotion. It is the procedure; as performed by Ray hoser that is the issue.
As to ARPs venomoids, its been mentioned in posts on here before. Because they were done by a highly qualified vet with much herp experience in a clean surgery without the aid of rubber bands nailed to a piece of wood and with the use of anesthetic and pain relief drugs it probably wasnt seen as important or comparative to the real issue.

No, I'm not trying to validate it by removing one of the main issues as you put it. The Issue is a double standard as I see it. The procedure as performed by Mr Ray Hoser is not the issue of this thread. There are enough "Hoser is mutilating scumbag" theads floating around and I would prefer if this thead stayed away from that line of thought.
As previously mentioned, I do not believe in venomoids and that is regardless of whether Mr Hoser or a qualified vet does it.

The reason I said "excluding the medical procedures itself" is because a lot of the arguments are not logically thought out and peoples emotions surface and these argument soon come down to "what's the use of having an Elapid if you remove the venom glands" and "if you want a non venomous snake should should get a python". These type of comments do not form any part of a logical argument/debate (And before anyone tries to brass me up for that yes I'm just as guilty for having said it myself). Or the other comments talking about the "barbaric act of venomoiding". No mention of any particular procedure just that venomioding itself is a barbaric act.
These arguments come up every time a debate on Mr Hoser comes up. Yet when it was mentioned that APS has venomoids (which we now know they don't) no-one even uttered a whisper. That, my friend, is the issue. I was just curious to find out peoples reasons or ideas behind this.
I was not after a debate on the act of venomoiding itself. I've been there, done that.


Personally I have quite a large-ish collection of Elapids, ranging from very placid animals that will curl up and go to sleep on your lap to some of the most psychotic Inland Taipans you'll ever come across. I would never dream of venomoiding any of my animals (no matter how psychotic they are.) So please never try to accuse me of "validating" venomoids.

 

[Hickson]

Yes, I got an email earlier today from someone confirming APS doesn't have venomoids. So now the record on that has been set straight.

glad to hear APS dosnt have any venomoids

Yet when it was mentioned that APS has venomoids (which we now know they don't) no-one even uttered a whisper.

Just a small point that no-one has picked up on........ APS doesn't have venemoids, it doesn't even have snakes. It has members (and some of them are quite venomous).

ARP, on the other hand, is a different matter........



Hix

 

[salebrosus]

I know how you love your animals elapid68..................and i know you would never be up for the venomoiding of any elapids.
I hate the idea of the procedure whether it's done with aneasthetic or not. Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc.
I can't wait for the day i finally own a Copperhead, venom and all!

Simone.

 

[jordo]

As to ARPs venomoids, its been mentioned in posts on here before. Because they were done by a highly qualified vet with much herp experience in a clean surgery without the aid of rubber bands nailed to a piece of wood and with the use of anesthetic and pain relief drugs it probably wasnt seen as important or comparative to the real issue.

With the amount of arguments people make like "I'm against venomoids" and "Why buy a ven just to void it" I don't think it is just the fact that a qualified vet performed the procedure. Maybe their leader wasn't there to follow in this instance, or maybe the fact ARP is a larger organisation than just one person made it too daunting to attack them. Who knows?

 

[dragons75]

If i was to surgically remove the beards on my dragons to make them look less scary to little kids i would and should be banned for life from owning any pets up on numerous animal cruelty charges and unable to look at myself in the mirror venamoiding is wrong it is cruel and those who doi it should have there eyes removed.

 

[Aslan]

Possibly just goes to prove the 'bandwagoning' debate...

The wagon is well and truly attached to Hoser...no wagon for ARP, no abuse...

Interesting observation about peoples willingness to express views (their own or otherwise..)...

 

[-Peter]

No, I'm not trying to validate it by removing one of the main issues as you put it. The Issue is a double standard as I see it. The procedure as performed by Mr Ray Hoser is not the issue of this thread. There are enough "Hoser is mutilating scumbag" theads floating around and I would prefer if this thead stayed away from that line of thought.
As previously mentioned, I do not believe in venomoids and that is regardless of whether Mr Hoser or a qualified vet does it.

The reason I said "excluding the medical procedures itself" is because a lot of the arguments are not logically thought out and peoples emotions surface and these argument soon come down to "what's the use of having an Elapid if you remove the venom glands" and "if you want a non venomous snake should should get a python". These type of comments do not form any part of a logical argument/debate (And before anyone tries to brass me up for that yes I'm just as guilty for having said it myself). Or the other comments talking about the "barbaric act of venomoiding". No mention of any particular procedure just that venomioding itself is a barbaric act.
These arguments come up every time a debate on Mr Hoser comes up. Yet when it was mentioned that APS has venomoids (which we now know they don't) no-one even uttered a whisper. That, my friend, is the issue. I was just curious to find out peoples reasons or ideas behind this.
I was not after a debate on the act of venomoiding itself. I've been there, done that.


Personally I have quite a large-ish collection of Elapids, ranging from very placid animals that will curl up and go to sleep on your lap to some of the most psychotic Inland Taipans you'll ever come across. I would never dream of venomoiding any of my animals (no matter how psychotic they are.) So please never try to accuse me of "validating" venomoids.

Thats the only issue I have with Ray Hoser.

 

[Isis]

The problem most people have with Hoser Aslan is the way he performs the "surgery" with no anasthetic or no qualifications.... The venomoid debate involving ARP is a whole other arguement. I dont agree with what venemoiding full stop and I definately am against backyard buthchers like Hoser believing that they can perform surgeries on animals. For a start it is illegal to perform surgery when you are unqualified and in unregistered premises.

 

[dellywatts]

I went and saw the snakebusters show at the shopping center and putting the vemoiding things aside for a second, i found the show to be horrible. I found (and in my own opinion) that there was little respect for the animals' welfare. The animals were passed around to little kids who dropped them. They put turtles on their backs just for the amusement of kids who thought it was funny that they could flip over. I don't think that they taught the kids any respect for these animals. Not to mention that there were so many animals being passed around and so many people around that anyone could have walked off with a crocodile or a snake.
As for the venom glad thing, enough people have said what i feel so there is no need to rewrite it.

Well that's my rant!

 

[snakelover]

G'day folks,

Thankyou for your interest regarding venomoid snakes at ARP. During the late 1980s our veterinarian conducted a surgical procedure on the tiger snakes and black snakes maintained in our outdoor exhibit pits, which effectively rendered them incapable of envenomating over-enthusiastic visitors. This was undertaken as a means of convincing our then-fledgling regulatory government agency and our increasingly intruding public liability insurance company that snakes in open pits didn’t present a risk to our visitors.

Strictly speaking however, this procedure was not a ‘venomoid’ operation, since our snakes didn’t lose the capacity to produce and store venom. Rather than removing the rather sizeable venom glands, the procedure was more akin to a vasectomy in that the venom duct - a narrow tube running below the eye and connecting the venom gland and fang, was cut and ligated so that venom could not flow from venom gland to bite-recipient. This procedure was discontinued in the early 1990s after achieving a solution to the above-mentioned insurance and regulatory issues. I think there may be two or three of these ‘vasectomised’ snakes still living at the Park. Although our veterinarian was and is extremely skilled and experienced in reptile surgery, I doubt that he would have considered a procedure as radical as removing the entire venom glands from snakes and replacing the void with silicone globules unless there were very commanding reasons to do so.

John Weigel
Australian Reptile Park

 

[Varanus1]

Originally posted by Johnbowemonie
"Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc."

just a quick question about this statement, has anyone actually heard of someone being bitten by an elapid because they picked it up and handled it like they saw at Ray's shows? Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you. Not to mention, these "Galoots" probably wouldn't know the difference between a python and a dangerous elapid anyway, and so handling any snake in public would present a risk to said people!

The world is full of stupid people who do stupid things.

By the way Simone, this is not an attack on you at all, I would just like to see if anyone can prove this "what if this happened...". Personally, I don't agree with the procedure of removing venom glands, but having not asked Ray why he does it, I don't feel I have the right to pass judgement.

There is nothing particularly fair or ethical in bagging someone - if you must comment, do so on the procedure, not the person.

Regards,
Trent

 

[AustHerps]

Despite what Ray argues (all of which is anecdotal mind you) there is absolutely no scientific evidence to suggest that manual restraint, tubing or head pinning causes excessive stress on animals and until there is scientific peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary then this remains the most humane way of handling these animals.

Might I just add that simply because there is no scientific peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary, doesn't mean that the abovementioned methods can be deemed the most humane.

I believe to a very high degree that an animal's behaviour and behavioural patterns are highly affected by the way the keeper interacts with his/her animal. I have seen first hand 5 or 6 coastal and inland taipans which never had any tools used on them unless absolutely necessary, and, they were very well behaved. Now, just because someone doesn't use tubes, doesn't pin frequently, etc, doesn't mean that a snake will turn out to be a good handler. But I think that it makes one's odds a lot better if they're not used unless necessary.

For instance, I have two reasonably young inland taipans here, both from the same clutch, both kept in the same conditions. One had a prolapse, and consequently received 7 injections. That taipan had to be pinned 8 times in total, one to reverse the prolapse, and 7 times for injections. That snake, to this day, is not the same snake. It is far more nervous, flighty, and doesn't hook all that well anymore. It's more fortunate companion, however, is the opposite - very calm, laid back, etc. Of course, I'm not stupid enough to suggest that this is the only factor. The snakes could just be naturally different. But if I had to put my finger on it, I'd say that the noticeable change came after the necessary pinnings.

Not to condone the operation, but I must say that I've never seen calmer brown snakes in my life. Just something to note I guess.

Cheers,
Aaron.

 

[MrBredli]

Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you.

Ummm.. except maybe kids of course..

 

[Oxyuranus microlepid]

My bad.

Just spoke to John Weigel and I don't know who I was listening to, but it wasn't John. He has just confirmed that the ARP did have some venemoids back in the 90s, but they don't have any now. They were kept in the snake pits, as there were concerns about people reaching in and being bitten by an elapid.

A vet conducted the operations at the time, different procedure to whats-his-face, and they haven't performed the operation in over ten years.

Once again, my apologies. I guess I must have drunk too much Coke on the day and misunderstood John.



Hix

Huh?
so the tigers/copperheads and eyelash vipers etc have had their venom glands removed? they DO have vens

i was there recently and one of the reptile keepers milked a tiger, showed me the venom too, it was real.

also, i thought venemoid was the term for whole, un-mutilated vens.....?

 

[elapid68]

Just a small point that no-one has picked up on........ APS doesn't have venemoids, it doesn't even have snakes. It has members (and some of them are quite venomous).

ARP, on the other hand, is a different matter........



Hix

Ooops, a case of the fingers typing quicker than the brain was working. My bad.

Yes I meant ARP and not APS.

Good pick up Hix.

 

[FAY]

Just a question....about how old would Ray Hoser be????

 

[Oxyuranus microlepid]

Just a question....about how old would Ray Hoser be????

i remember some1 saying 36? correct me if im wrong

 

[da_donkey]

36! i hope i look better than that at 36.

Donk

 

[FAY]

Why I asked is that myself and garth were just talking about him...thinking that it is something an 'OLD' showman might consider doing....not someone who should be a bit more informed at the age of 36.