Jungle Cross GTP

[Retic]

Absolutely right but I can't see how this issue can possibly influence our wild native wildlife at all. No-one seriously thinks our animals will ever see the wild again excepting escapees of course.
Most of our animals are far removed from wild animals ?

 

[SnakeWrangler]

It should not be a question of what is good for us as reptile keepers but what is good for the protection of wild Australian native fauna.

I am 100% for the protection of our WILD native fauna, but captive bred animals have no affect on them. Besides, our wild native fauna takes care of itself as long as we stop imposing on their natural habitat and give it a place to live. I think people who continue to take animals from the wild are causing more damage to wild native fauna than those breeding hybrids.

 

[waruikazi]

It should not be a question of what is good for us as reptile keepers but what is good for the protection of wild Australian native fauna.

either way i think my suggestion is a pretty decent one, perhaps an independant investigation as to what would be the most suitable course of action would be best, although i doubt our hobby would recieve that sort of funding :roll:

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Snake Wrangler
Tell me honestly of a reptile keeper who has kept reptiles for 10 years that hasn't ever had a snake escape whether they recovered it or not. There won't be that many and many more just won’t admit it.
Assuming your are referring to W.A collecting, back up what you are saying in regards to wild collecting causing damage to wild native fauna. If the collecting is done with out habitat destruction then I guarantee you can not .
.

 

[Retic]

So I assume your argument is based on the fact that if a hybrid were to escape it could influence the wild population ? Any snake that isn't native to the area it is kept is a potential danger, if a non native snake escapes in another area it could 'pollute' the local snakes. There would be little if any difference between a legally kept Jungle and an illegally kept chondro/Jungle if they escaped in Brisbane for example.
By all means argue against hybrids but don't use there theoretical affects on native snakes in the wild as a part of that argument.

By the way, 12 pages now and still nicely on track by and large, well done.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Yep Gordo, not a bad idea. And anyone wanting to put their own point of view is most welcome to debate, if I choose to take the political line, there is absolutely nothing to stop others with a differing point of view from doing the same. The more light thrown onto the topic the better for all concerned.

Now Boa I've said it TIME & TIME AGAIN, I don't dislike those animals, and I've even said that some of them are gorgeous... but under the stunning exterior lies a sinister potential, it's not the hybrids, but the practice of hybridising that is the problem.

Magpie, your argument might sound a bit more reasoned, and a bit less emotional if you didn't use so many "over the top" adjectives.

Jamie.

 

[Retic]

I actually meant you don't like the animals in so far as what they represent, not as an animal. Sorry I should have made that more clear.

Now Boa I've said it TIME & TIME AGAIN, I don't dislike those animals, and I've even said that some of them are gorgeous... but under the stunning exterior lies a sinister potential, it's not the hybrids, but the practice of hybridising that is the problem.

Jamie.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Yeah, I reckon we're doing really well so far - congrats all, especially you Boa, I'll have to buy you a beer sometime... after the legislation is passed... lol

 

[waruikazi]

Don't worry i still have heaps of beer and popcorn left from when this thread started

Think i even have some bourbon here for you girls too :twisted:

 

[SnakeWrangler]

So you think that taking animals from the wild does not hurt them? When you take a female adult from the wild, that doesn't potentially reduce the future number of animals? And I am not saying you are destroying natural habitat, I meant people in general removing their habitat for housing or whatever.

But this is a classic example of what you want to do, is ok, but what others want is not. Removing wild animals absolutely affects the wild populations, to say it doesn't is not true, immediately you have one less in the population and if it is female then you have just reduced the future population, especially when there are most likely already large numbers in captivity that can be bred to fuel the market.

You do not need evidence to show this, it is just common sense.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Let’s put things in to prospective a bit Boa, if a cross bred snake was kept in an area that it did not naturally occur in and escaped into the wild and there were naturally species in that same area that were of a different species but were members of the same genus then undoubtedly there would be tainting of wild populations. If how ever the escapee were still a cross but naturally in the area where it escaped into did not naturally contain that genus then tainting that population would be extremely unlikely.

 

[waruikazi]

PB i think Boa was saying something more along the lines of if a jungle escaped into coastal territory. In this case it could definately cause damage to the wild gene population just as much as a hybrid could.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I have to go and do some work now, be back later... keep my place warm for me eh?

J.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Snakewrangler, read the following and if you still do not understand it then probably never will. And please don’t take offense.

For 40 thousands years the natives have harvested pythons and lizards for food here in the Pilbara. There were in fact 30 different tribes spread across different parts of the Pilbara alone. Now lets consider the possibility that one reptile was taken for food per day by each tribe. If this figure was close then over a one year period all Pilbara tribes combined would have harvested a total of 10 950 reptiles and including many that would have been gravid. Over a thousand year period they would have harvested 10 950 000, and over 40 thousand years it would be around 43 million reptiles killed, let alone the reptiles killed in that period from regular land burning. Surprise, surprise, BHPs, Woma’s, lizards, etc are still very, common.
Why? The answer is partly because those species have more than one hatchling or young to compensate for predation, and death from natural environmental pressures.
Aboriginals were also natural predators and a part of that equation.15 licensed W.A takers who do not possess the same tracking skills as the aboriginals couldn’t wipe these species out by wild collecting even if they wanted to.

Sorry that this has gone off the thread subject as I do not want this to happen

 

[waruikazi]

I have to go and do some work now, be back later... keep my place warm for me eh?

J.

And a beer cold for yah

Or should you get a bourbon?? 8)

 

[SnakeWrangler]

PB, I haven't taken offence.

Once again, we see the same mentality. If I don't "understand" things the same as you then I must be wrong or incapable of understanding, when did your ideas/beliefs/morals/whatever become superior to mine? Where do you get this inate "correctness", please I want to know.

What you have just presented doesn't change the fact that I think continuing to take animals from the wild is not necessary anymore, there are more than enough in captivity to sustain our hobby, that is how you justify your actions which is fine, but that doesn't mean you are right and I am wrong and it doesn't mean that I am right and your are wrong, both of our opinions are subjective.


---EDIT---

Just to tie this into the theme of the thread, the same applies to hybridisation, there is no right or wrong answer. There is a BEST solution, but your belief on the matter is just as valid and correct as mine, even when they disagree because our beliefs do not depend upon each other.

 

[Retic]

Yes that was exactly what I was saying.

PB i think Boa was saying something more along the lines of if a jungle escaped into coastal territory. In this case it could definately cause damage to the wild gene population just as much as a hybrid could.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

2+2 will all ways equal 4 and always will, just as facts are facts regardless of my opinion or any body else’s. The trouble is many people don't believe what is fact and therefore have little credibility in an argument when they don't. What I say or do is not said to try to justify what we are doing as clearly we don't have to. It is more to educate or bring to attention what is so often misunderstood and emotionally biased by so many who have little knowledge of what sustainable harvesting is all about. I think we should start another thread though on the ethics of wild collecting perhaps as this hybrid discussion is to important to mix with the wild collecting drama don’t you think?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Actually I'm a red wine man myself - couldn't you guess!!? I think SnakeWrangler, that for every reptile taken from the habitat (within reason of course) and as long as the habitat remains intact, there will be an individual of the same species ready to move into it's place. That's pretty much regarded as fact by the scientific community.

And I disagree that all points of view have equal weight in this ethical debate. If it is an ethical issue, and it has the potential to damage, then it should not be done indiscriminately.

Jamie.

 

[Retic]

Absolutely, I look forward to it but don't hold your breath waiting for the legislation :lol:

Yeah, I reckon we're doing really well so far - congrats all, especially you Boa, I'll have to buy you a beer sometime... after the legislation is passed... lol