Reptile Emotions Debate

[longirostris]

This is arguably still an instinct. Humans simply have some instinct to form a social group and assist each other. There's plenty of other animals that live in packs or hives and display similar seemingly altruistic behavior.

It's hard to even say if humans are even capable of completely altruistic actions since they will inevitably feel some reward or pleasure from helping another.

I was not trying to draw an analogy of social behaviours. I agree there are many animals that seem to be able to form social groups. I would even go as far as to say I see some evidence of this in my dragons, particularly Jacky dragons and Tommy Roundheads. Both species can be housed in largish numbers in an enclosure with no trouble or fighting at all. In fact I have described in a published paper written 15 odd years ago how I observed Jacky dragons wintering together in groups of 4 or more.

The point of the analogy was to try to demonstrate the process of ANALYTICAL decision making Versus the process of instinctive behaviour in an environment where the parameters were not ideal or usually encountered. I have already acknowledged it was a poorly drawn analogy and did little to advance my arguement.

I agree with your final comment on altruism in humans because as you rightly point out there is always a benefit even if it is just feeling good.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

Well what a debate we have going. I still don't think that anyone has come up with any conclusive evidence, apart from say a lot of big words that I can't even spell let alone pronounce. The POLL is creeping ahead in peoples feelings towards yes.

Maybe we should give it to a real philosipher of science, (not saying you people are not) just not paid the big bucks.

I have another Idea that i could over the next few years breed some of my very affectionate placid snakes together & try to teach them some form of communication so as they can awnser this question for us, BUT of course that would take a lot of time & money to support such a program, so I would need CASH insentive of high value.

Looking forward to hearing a favourable response from you all.

Many thanks
Ian.

 

[longqi]

Everyone
This thread is awesome
It has gone far past anything I ever expected
I'm way past my comfort zone and thats possibly a good thing?

Although the votes seem to point slightly in one direction I hope everyone has gained more knowledge
Changed views entirely?? Perhaps not..... But prepared to consider possible alternatives??... Hopefully yes in either direction

Ian
Well I for one would happily throw 500,000 your way for that




Thats was Indonesia Rupiah Not dollars
OK

 

[Elapidae1]

So if the concept and wording for emotion had never been invented by humans it would be fair to say that what we display and call emotions, are not actually emotions. Given that emotion is an abstract concept invented by humans to label something we really don't understand. We would still more than likely display all the things we consider emotions, they just wouldn't have a label so do they then become instinct.

Whether we have given it a label or not is inconsequential, the difference is that as humans we are able to recognise it to give it a label. We understand that emotions are triggered by certain events, we have the ability to trigger these emotions and we often do so by seeking out situations and circumstances that cause us to become emotive. Emotions are also governed by the societies in which we live and are raised in. Animals don't have these abilities.

So steve, because an animal cannot communicate these chemical reactions we call feelings, in written or audible language that we understand, therefore they are not feelings. ( Not said nastily, just debating with reason).

Feelings or emotions? Which are we talking about? It's not that they can't communicate their emotions it's that they can't recognise emotion to communicate it in the first place.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

Everyone
This thread is awesome
It has gone far past anything I ever expected
I'm way past my comfort zone and thats possibly a good thing?

Although the votes seem to point slightly in one direction I hope everyone has gained more knowledge
Changed views entirely?? Perhaps not..... But prepared to consider possible alternatives??... Hopefully yes in either direction

Ian
Well I for one would happily throw 500,000 your way for that




Thats was Indonesia Rupiah Not dollars
OK

So mate that comfort zone is that Emotion or a response????

I just had to ask.

I guess by now you guess that I voted NO that reptiles do not have emotions, that is my personal response or choice.

Let me say that a cold blooded animal that could eat its offspring or younger partner has no emotions or morals for that respect.
So how would we be regarded if we did such things ourselves, I guess we would be immoral & have no sense of emotions.

If I had to love a cold blooded bitch that maybe wanted to eat me, I would have second thoughts, I don't know about you.

The other thing is all they want to do is lay around, eat & **** & have sex once a year, how could you love something like that.

I for one am glad I am not a snake.

Food for thought.

Cheers
Ian.

 

[redlittlejim]

Ok, im back with 2 days of results. as i had my one night off during the week i slept a god 16hours and only got to do the test once on the sunday.

Sunday test 1: coastal. every time to me.
olive. wife twice. me twice.

monday test 1: coastal. first my wife, than me, than me. than me after 2 steps.
olive test one. wife, me, me, wife after 5 steps.

test 2: coastal, me, me, towards my wife and stoped at her feet. wife and stop at her feet again
olive, me, neither, neither, me after 3steps.

havent got as much time so i appreviating how i post.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

So redlittlejim does this really prove anything? all good for your consertive efforts. I hope that they are not paying you as much as me.

Other thoughts that have come to mind is of some of the more caring reptiles that we have out there.

A mother Crocodile waits untill her eggs hatch & then carries them to the waters edge where they can be safe by her guard for some time.

I have seen a documentary that I can only presume is real, where a Monitor lizard had come back to a termite mound where she had layed her eggs some 9 months earlier to escavate them & let them out. NOW was that actually the mother & if so how can she remember where & the dates. If it was not the mother (just as example) was it another passing by Monitor that heard the eggs hatch & young cry out for release????????? A REALLY BIG QSTN.

Anyways still no proof.
Cheers
Ian.

 

[souldoubt]

So mate that comfort zone is that Emotion or a response????

I just had to ask.

I guess by now you guess that I voted NO that reptiles do not have emotions, that is my personal response or choice.

Let me say that a cold blooded animal that could eat its offspring or younger partner has no emotions or morals for that respect.
So how would we be regarded if we did such things ourselves, I guess we would be immoral & have no sense of emotions.

If I had to love a cold blooded bitch that maybe wanted to eat me, I would have second thoughts, I don't know about you.

The other thing is all they want to do is lay around, eat & **** & have sex once a year, how could you love something like that.

I for one am glad I am not a snake.

Food for thought.

Cheers
Ian.

I know that your post is meant to be at least partly witty but that aside, some tribes/groups of humans have been cannabilistic
I really couldn't believe that this act makes these tribes/group devoid of emotion

 

[grimbeny]

From memory that one was filmed in someone's garage.

 

[longqi]

Ian
Maybe my comfort zone is a response to a natural emotional instinct??

I love your last line
'anyways still no proof"

This debate has brought out so many things I had never considered

I wonder if this will happen???

"Now class of 2111. I want to show you just how silly people were only 100 years ago
This was a debate between people who had no access to the [insert name here] test or machine that categorically proved the all living creatures [do or do not [insert choice]] have emotions"

Great fun
Thanks to everyone who has commented on a fairly equally shared debate so far

Littleredjim
Nearly time for those photos
Well done mate and interesting results so far
Its not categorically proving anything but at least you found out you can fit in your wifes pants

 

[SnakeyTroy]

Of course Reptiles have emotions. They feel angry sometimes, they feel happy sometimes, they feel frightened sometimes. these are all emitions and they can be clearly seen in all reptiles as they react to diferent situations.

 

[Nagraj]

......
Emotion has nothing to do with Biology.

If emotion has nothing to do with biology then why do H. sapiens have them?

 

[redlittlejim]

photos will be uploaded next time. Though longqi, i dont fit her pants, there her stretchy pants

although its not fully proven or will ever actually prove it. i for one seem to think that my coastal (more so than the olive) recognises me. or feels more safer with me. (therefore showing an emotion) why else would it always come to me even when trying to fool it with the scent/clothes swapping? im not saying it 'loves' me, but it shows something as even when it goes to my wife in my clothes its seems unsure if it wants to get as close. if there was no clothes swapping it always comes to everytime. what else could make it always be comfortable with me other than anyone else? body heat? i doubt from 5metres away it is going to seek me out in the middle of the day in cairns!

I have stated this before,
a reptiles instinct is based on survival if they were to realize you are the key to their survival then they will trust you possibly even attach themselves to you. Do you think this is the "love" or "emotions" my coastal shows me?
i really had never seen a lizard/snake or reptile of any species show any type of affection that wasn't a learned trait or an act of survival until i started to have favourites... coastal seems to show affection
​

 

[fugawi]

Steve.....In this context feelings are emotions, you feel sad, you feel happiness. They are feelings because you quite literally feel them within your body. If you give it as a taken that emotions/feelings are the result of chemicals (I think they are called endorphins) being released into the body giving us these feelings/emotions and reptiles bodies are capable of releasing these endorphins(?) then therefore they must have feelings/emotions as well. Whether they have the intellect to communicate these emotions or not does not enter into it. Their body still receives the chemicals/endorphins whether they understand it or not.

Now to throw a spanner into the works...........
Can instincts be learned?
Are learned behaviours based on instinct?
Can you have instinctive emotions and learned emotions?

We're the fugawi

 

[longqi]

We're the fugawi ????
^^^
Almost as lost as I feel sometimes I reckon

Those questions can wait until after sleep I think

 

[carterd]

If emotion has nothing to do with biology then why do H. sapiens have them?

Emotion is of the soul, Instinct is of the body.
When you see a future Mate, your body responds, this is instinctive.
When you start to flurt and speak of love, this is Emotion .
We are all animals, Humans are different with emotions. Thats why we express good or evil.

 

[longqi]

^^^Carterd
1.....How exactly does science prove the existence of a human soul??
2... Fair enough
3.... So when a lioness responds to a lion by rubbing her nibbly bits all over him, which is obviously flirting, this is love??
4....But if that lioness shows love then we are not different??

Fugawi
Now to throw a spanner into the works...........OK socket or moveable.. we must be fair and choose our weapons

Can instincts be learned? I dont think so because then they wouldnt be instinctive??
Are learned behaviours based on instinct? Probably most of them would be in the wild but not in school??
Can you have instinctive emotions and learned emotions? .... Now that is the crux of the entire debate??

Just food for thought

 

[Recharge]

But if a week old baby snuggles against its human parent we say this is an emotional response??

quite simply, it's not an emotional response, it's purely instinct and a reaction to external stimuli, it's a survival trait.

emotion (as we humans experience it) doesn't develop until cognitive ability starts forming (I am unsure at which age this is)

the problem is what we term emotion, I have no doubt there are different forms of emotion, not just the human one, but we don't have the language or understanding to truly explain them and their differences.

just as we know (through high functioning autism) that emotion isn't entirely tied with cognitive ability.
(an autistic doesn't have the wiring in the brain to feel a range of emotions which differs between each autistic, they learn to estimate the social desired response from others)

when it comes to free will, to be free in the way we understand "free will" requires one to understand fully the ramifications of our decisions and responses, without that understanding, there is no "free" while animals may appear to have some limited "understanding" they simply do not have full self awareness, nor higher brain functioning that makes US what we are.
(there's more to this obviously, but it's too dificult and long winded to really go into)

 

[Elapidae1]

"Can you have instinctive emotions and learned emotions?"

I don't think emotions can be instinctive. Possibly all our emotions are learned, which is why different societies find some behaviours and attitudes, ETC more or less acceptable than others.

I don't know much about how the brain works or how endorphins are released, but I think that we have no natural control over our endorphins, we do however have the ability to rationalize that a chemical reaction has taken place within our bodies.

 

[Wookie]

Only emotion I know they have is fear. They don't show affection or loyalty.

LOL Melissa you're so cold :lol:. Your posts make me laugh.