Reptile Emotions Debate

[SamNabz]

Sam.......another thing. If reptiles run purely on instinct as you say has been conclusively proven beyond any doubt then explain why a pet Beardie does NOT show the initial survival instinct of flight or fight when it sees us? Yet a wild one will. It has therefore learned to suppress its natural instincts. We can then pick up the beardie and sit it on our shoulder where yet again it suppresses the instinct to run and just sits there. This simple experiment shows that they are NOT running purely on instinct.

Fugawi,

I've seen, on more than 1 occasion, someone picking up a wild beardie without it putting up a fight, handling it as if it were a pet and even hand feeding one.

As I've mentioned before, it comes down to the individual reptile; some are docile while others are nightmares... So evidently, your point above means nothing, sorry.

 

[longqi]

Sam
Littleredjim and most other people have stated that this test does not prove anything and I agree
I was simply pointing out to someone else that a test similar to one they proposed was already being done

I honestly can find zero other reasons for that particular burmese to act the way it does
If anyone can think of any other valid reason please tell me
Note well; I am not suggesting that it avoiding biting me is an emotional response

Of course there are no conclusive proofs out there
But that actually goes both ways
Although science has some tests that at this time suggest that reptiles have no emotions even they do not pretend that they know everything about these lovely animals

The vote was added by Admin I think
I never asked for it to be put there and really would have liked to see a lot more "undecided/dont know" voters

Just accept it, stop trying to domesticate them.
I imagine someone yelled that at the first people who played with cats and dogs too??

In Australia we are so far behind the times in domesticating reptiles it isnt funny
On Facebook Youtube etc etc and in every country on Earth people are playing with reptiles in a domestic situation
Does that prove their reptiles have emotions??
It does not prove it categorically and beyond any shadow of doubt; which is what is required in a court of law
BUT
The scientific evidence so far presented here has exactly the same problem in that it also proves nothing beyond any shadow of doubt

This has been a great thread and hopefully will continue in the same way

 

[fugawi]

Sam.....Actually it proves my point even more by individual animals, when confronted by a large prospective predator, can suppress their natural instincts. In fact it could also show individual levels of intelligence, smart or dumb, whichever the case maybe.

 

[longqi]

^^^
By far the best example of this is a snake that plays dead when people approach
It actually rolls over and looks dead
It only ever does this with humans
It doesnt do it with other animals because it "knows" they can detect life through many other ways
Therefore playing dead would not work
But humans usually just look at something at ignore all their other senses

Instinct??
Learned behaviour??
Reactive behaviour to stimuli??

Or could it be a slightly higher level of intelligence than we usually associate with reptiles??

 

[SamNabz]

^^^
By far the best example of this is a snake that plays dead when people approach
It actually rolls over and looks dead
It only ever does this with humans
It doesnt do it with other animals because it "knows" they can detect life through many other ways
Therefore playing dead would not work
But humans usually just look at something at ignore all their other senses

Instinct??
Learned behaviour??
Reactive behaviour to stimuli??

Or could it be a slightly higher level of intelligence than we usually associate with reptiles??

Lol, wow longqi, that is a ridiculous claim. Animals behavioural instincts, fangs, claws, venoms etc. have nothing to do with protecting themselves against the human race.

To think otherwise is a bit silly mate...

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment every day for last few days
Results are being posted each day
Makes interesting reading

Jackrabbit
we have a baby burmese here only about 2metres long
It will push a rat off my hand then smash it
Only if I close my hand and tease it by covering the rat up, will it start getting ready to hit me
If the rat is just hung in front of it is smashes the rat first time every time

QUOTE}That's how they become attached to someone. It isn't an emotional attachment, as shown by their ability to bite and attack the hand that feeds now and then.
UNQUOTE

"Biting the hand that feeds you" is a human expression used to describe the equivalent of the same thing when done by humans??
But humans have emotions and animals dont???

Well that Jackrabbit trick is really amazing!!!
I don't think that I will try it with my hungry gutted Diamonds though, even though I think they may like me a bit I think that is asking too much of them as their senses I am sure will tell them food, bite anything that moves. But any time other than food, one could say they love me & let me do allmost anything to them.

This still does not prove emotions to me, more so a smart snake.
I think where the emotions come in is where people feel that they have an emotional interaction.

But I may be considered an unemotional bugger.

Cheers
Ian.

 

[KaotikJezta]

It seems a lot of people are mixing up emotions as a chemical reaction that causes a feeling with human rationalisation of the feeling.

 

[longqi]

Lol, wow longqi, that is a ridiculous claim. Animals behavioural instincts, fangs, claws, venoms etc. have nothing to do with protecting themselves against the human race.

To think otherwise is a bit silly mate...

Ian
Its just something that started by accident with two snakes out of a few hundred over the years
In both cases those snakes were wandering around doing snakey stuff while I fed others
I had a rat in my hand when opening a viv to feed another and the loose one nuzzled my hand
Lucy was a nice sized carpet
Luna is a two metre Burmese
I have deliberately repeated it several times with both snakes with the same result

Once again I am not attributing this to emotions

Sam
Just do a quick google on snake plays dead
After you have read the hundreds of reports where different species; including one pretty venomous one in Africa; apparently do this as a regular matter of course; then you can comment like that

I never said it was emotion or anything like that
But when you have an animal that reacts in such a manner there need to be questions asked
So I simply asked those questions
Is it instinct?? Instinct is supposedly formed before birth? and snakes were around long before humans??
Is it learned behaviour?? Snakes cannot learn as we have been told here so many times??
Reactive behaviour to stimuli?? How?

Not one word I said is incorrect
These various breeds include the real spitting cobra or rinkhals which can readily kill a human but instead usually play dead with head rolled back and mouth wide open
After you google you may want to ask who exactly was being silly??

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

This Debate could go on forever with no definitive answer, only peoples perceptions.
I need another drink.
Cheers
Ian.

 

[lazylizzy]

the look in my lace monitors eyes when i give them a nice warm bath to play in just shows they clearly love it. also, isnt being relaxed an emotion? you can clearly tell when they are relaxed or not

 

[Jackrabbit]

"Biting the hand that feeds you" is a human expression used to describe the equivalent of the same thing when done by humans??
But humans have emotions and animals dont???

I am sure I am getting out of my depth here but when a human 'bites the hand that feeds' it not an emotional response. It is just an expression I a sure we all understand the meaning of. For animals I meant it to be a literal action of biting the hand with food in it.

I am aware that there might be animals that won't/might not literally bite a hand with food in it, I am also sure we have all experienced a snake lunging at the glass as we pass by or when food is about to be offered. That doesn't mean it is angry but that it is keen to get at the food or may be a defensive response. Can you say that is an emotional response?

 

[redlittlejim]

Well today sadly is the last day of the test cause i fed all my snakes tonight. and they will be to full for the next few days.
coastal : neither. me. me. me.
Olive : me. stopped at wifes foot. me after 2 steps. me.

did not get an afternoon test.

Now although my olive seems to be completely random. I have to say that to me the original question .. DO REPTILES HAVE EMOTIONS.. is simply a yes. im not saying that they go in depth like love and hate. but they must have some level of emotion for the coastal to always come to me. it cant just be instinct. even if its because it views me as safer cause its used to me etc. the fact that it can recognise me compared to others (even when trying to trick it) shows some sort of emotion. feeling safe and comfortable lets off a emotion. maybe not love but the feeling is still there. they may not LOVE us but they cancertainly like us more than others.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

Well today sadly is the last day of the test cause i fed all my snakes tonight. and they will be to full for the next few days.
coastal : neither. me. me. me.
Olive : me. stopped at wifes foot. me after 2 steps. me.

did not get an afternoon test.

Now although my olive seems to be completely random. I have to say that to me the original question .. DO REPTILES HAVE EMOTIONS.. is simply a yes. im not saying that they go in depth like love and hate. but they must have some level of emotion for the coastal to always come to me. it cant just be instinct. even if its because it views me as safer cause its used to me etc. the fact that it can recognise me compared to others (even when trying to trick it) shows some sort of emotion. feeling safe and comfortable lets off a emotion. maybe not love but the feeling is still there. they may not LOVE us but they cancertainly like us more than others.

That is all fine to know that a reptile can find where its source of food,protection,& accotiated friends are, even if it does find you as a comfort spot rather than your partner, this does still not prove emotions.

I am sorry, I am not convinced.
Ian.

 

[redlittlejim]

how can you feel anything without emotions. for it to feel protected and comfortable it has to have some form of emotion. scared for example of going to someone else rather than just coming to me everytime.

 

[longqi]

TY TY TY Jim
Well done to have kept it going
Interesting results
Nothing definitely proven by them but hopefully some may wonder about it

Jackrabbit and Ian
Before this started many were convinced they were 100% correct with every detail either for or against
Maybe afterwards people from both sides might see things slightly differently
Nobody proved they do have emotions to a legal standard
Nobody proved they dont have emotions to a legal standard

Maybe thats how it was always going to be???
Maybe there is food for thought with some of the suggestions and answers??
And thats a great thing

 

[redlittlejim]

NP NP NP longqi.
Got to keep the ball rolling with xxmelissaxx gone
i honestly do not understand how something can have feelings but not emotions. may differ from humans but its still got to be there. i understand wild reptiles may act more on instinct but how can it just be down to instinct when a pet who is treated like family shows emotional responses?

 

[Australis]

^^^
By far the best example of this is a snake that plays dead when people approach
It actually rolls over and looks dead
It only ever does this with humans

Which snake species does this exclusively for Homo sapiens

 

[carterd]

Hey longqi, i'm enjoying this thread.
What people need to understand, is that when you or your pets feel something in your body, this is not emotion.
Emotion cannot be measured.
Is desire an emotion ? No
Is personality an emotion ? No
Do Reptiles have desire (intents of the heart) ? No
Do Reptiles have personality ? Yes
Reptiles have personality, not emotion.
When totally non-emotional, decisions are made according to rules.
Humans have the emotional option to let bias influence there decisions.
Do Reptiles make decisions, based on emotion. I think not. They are bound by instinctive laws.
Do Reptiles have inspiration ? eg - music, emotion at it's best.
What you see in your Reptiles is Personality.
What you feel, they feel, ( physically )But we add emotion, ( non-physical ).
When you are emotionally attached to your pets, of course you want them to have emotions back at you. I do

 

[redlittlejim]

I think one of the points is that a reptile does make a decision base on emotion. Pushing rat off hand to eat cause it doesn't wanna hurt longqi for example.

Instinct wood be just to bite him. Or coastal coming to me. Instinct wood be to aliterate away don't u think

 

[longqi]

Australis
Hemachatus haemachatus Ring Necked Spitting Cobra or Rinkhals [its not actually a cobra but looks identical]
Hognoses etc do this as well but they add a putrid musk to smell rotten and dont do it just for humans

Carter and Jim this thread had been really great
Possibly the thoughts raised will carry on
That will be a very good thing

I must admit I do disagree with some of the posts here but lots of them leave questions that appear to have no perfect answer and that is a sign of a healthy debate