Reptile Emotions Debate

[SamNabz]

Australis
Hemachatus haemachatus Ring Necked Spitting Cobra or Rinkhals [its not actually a cobra but looks identical]
Hognoses etc do this as well but they add a putrid musk to smell rotten and dont do it just for humans

longqi, I don't deny that there are snakes that use that defence mechanism as I have seen it on a few doco's, however to state that they do it exclusively for humans is nonsense... No animal is equipped with it's 'artillery' to protect themselves from us.

I think one of the points is that a reptile does make a decision base on emotion. Pushing rat off hand to eat cause it doesn't wanna hurt longqi for example.

Instinct wood be just to bite him. Or coastal coming to me. Instinct wood be to aliterate away don't u think

Sorry red, but how am I meant to believe that your snakes came to you when you and the wife were at opposite ends of a room? I recall asking who ever did such a thing to record it for all to see.

As for it coming to you (if in fact it did), you were most probably the warmest 'spot' in the room.

 

[SYNeR]

Emotions in humans are quite often not rationalised. Therefore I don't think it's much of a stretch to say reptiles have emotions.
If you do some reading on trolley studies (often referred to as 'trolleyology'), general moral theory and neuroscience, this seems to be the way things are.

A common example given in psychological studies is something along the lines of "A brother and sister decide to have protected sex". Most people will be repulsed, but unable to rationalise their feelings.. To some scientists, it would appear evolution has equipped us with a natural revulsion towards incest (for obvious reasons), however in this circumstance, people still fail to rationalise their feelings (given the act is protected and will not result in children). A *lot* of people work from gut instinct and fail to rationalise their feelings and emotions.

A similar thing is said to be case for homophobia, too.

Reading:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/293/5537/2105.abstract

Joshua Greene's studies are especially good:

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~jgreene/

This is particularly important:

Our research indicates that there is no dedicated “moral sense” or “moral faculty.” Instead, moral judgment arises from interactions among dissociable cognitive systems, many of which—perhaps all of which—are not specifically dedicated to moral judgment. In light of this, we aim to understand how moral judgment is shaped by the operating characteristics of these disparate systems. These include systems that enable cognitive control, reward-seeking behavior, the representation of actions, and sensory imagery.

Evolutionary (moral) psychology:

http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/emotion.html

 

[longqi]

Sam
Every other snake is fight or flee
With Rinkhals their usual first defence is to raise the hood and hood and hiss then spit at any any animal [fight??]
If that fails then they play dead
But if the animal approaches too closely they spit
But with humans they play dead first in by far the majority of cases
I watched a guide in Rhodesia pick up a 'dead' one and briefly handle it before putting it back down
No movement from the snake
We moved away about 50metres and off it went
I an not saying that is emotions
But how did they learn to do it that way??

Red did his best with limited tools and time frame etc etc
Even he said it was not a scientific test conducted in a scientific manner
The results were not conclusive but he believes that something changed and reported it
We cant ask for much more than that at this time??

A similar test is going to be carried out in about a month
I am selecting the reptiles now
Probably a 5yr old iguana and I already know exactly the result of that one
Then 2 burmese and a retic which may have a different result
Because I will have time I will have video set up etc and will try to get independent observers
Do I believe that it will positively prove emotions???
Not at all
[But I do like some of my girlfriends clothes]

Snyder
That common example nearly put me off my breakfast....... but I get your point

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Australis
Hemachatus haemachatus Ring Necked Spitting Cobra or Rinkhals [its not actually a cobra but looks identical]
Hognoses etc do this as well but they add a putrid musk to smell rotten and dont do it just for humans

I would have to disagree with you here! This is untrue. Rinkhals performs this behaviour for most of the larger mammals in Africa.

 

[longqi]

Ok Cool
I stand corrected
Even though having been there done that, and listened to what local tribesman and the guide said I had believed it for many years
They totally all believed this to be true
Their main reason for saying this, was that all other predators can sense life so will ignore a play dead signal
Humans dont bother using those senses and rely on their eyes

But thats ok
I am more than happy to learn new things
Thanks for setting me straight

 

[fugawi]

Humans have been in africa for 10 000 yrs, before that human predecessors date back around 100 000yrs. Plenty of time interacting to evolve specialised defences.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

It has certianly been a healthy debate, I cannot say that it has changed my mind, but it certainly does makes me think about the question being debated. I look forward to hearing about future experiments & you certainly won't see a film of me in my wifes clothes.

Cheers
Ian.

 

[longqi]

^^^^^
That response is excellent

[Shame about the clothes bit though]

 

[fugawi]

It's funny, he says we wont see FILM of it. Not denying it.LOL

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

It's funny, he says we wont see FILM of it. Not denying it.LOL

LOL yah no one knows what goes on behind closed doors.You may see the nieghbours on the weekend looking at my place wondering if I have lost the plot, nah just drunk again.

Cheers

The other thing is, what makes reptile keeping so exciting or invigorating to me is that the reptiles cannot communicate in our
language, so you have to work out for yourself what they are trying to communicate.

Cheers

 

[Elapidae1]

They aren't trying to communicate anything that would require emotions and abstract thought,LOL

 

[SYNeR]

They aren't trying to communicate anything that would require emotions and abstract thought,LOL

No. Reread my previous post, and read the associated literature. Often emotion doesn't correlate too highly with abstract-though, increased cognitive abilities, etc.

 

[longqi]

^^^^^^
Would a psychopath be an example of one who lacks emotions but often has high levels of both intelligence and cognitive abilities??

 

[SYNeR]

I haven't looked at psychopathy much, but my understanding is that they tend to lack empathy, feelings of guilt, etc. They may feel other pleasurable emotions at the thought and act of killing people, though.

 

[IzzyBeardieLover]

YES! Who can't say their beardie hasn't gotten excited when the crickets come out?

 

[Cockney_Red]

^^^^^^
Would a psychopath be an example of one who lacks emotions but often has high levels of both intelligence and cognitive abilities??

That would be A Sociopath, of which I, keep a few examples...

 

[Defective]

YES! Who can't say their beardie hasn't gotten excited when the crickets come out?

or pinkie rats in my case!

 

[thoma1234]

I vote yes i believe they do.

 

[cement]

NP NP NP longqi.
Got to keep the ball rolling with xxmelissaxx gone
i honestly do not understand how something can have feelings but not emotions. may differ from humans but its still got to be there. i understand wild reptiles may act more on instinct but how can it just be down to instinct when a pet who is treated like family shows emotional responses?

Maybe at a large stretch I could say that reptiles might feel emotions.....BUT how exactly does your family pet SHOW emotion?
And if your talking about a snake, I can't wait to hear it!

 

[longqi]

Cement
We have several that display things very differently to others
Whether or not it is because of emotion I have no idea

But one Burmese wants to kiss women
Maybe not strange as its a young male but most of our customers do tend to get a bit nervous when he goes there
Every time a woman wants to hold it we have to explain that its not going to bite but will probably want to kiss her
It does try for a kiss either directly on on very close to the lips in 80% of cases of women holding it
Also kisses me but no other males

Iguana was wild caught as an adult
Pretty bloody savage thing with claws just like a varanus and just as strong
Within three months its handler had it toilet trained etc etc
When she has time off it sulks and has to be coaxed to feed etc
As soon as shes back it follows her round like a puppy dog until she has played with it enough

Most of our snakes wild caught
On any given day 1 burmese 1 retic and 2or3 chondros will be hanging around the shop on branches or floor etc
As soon as anyone walks in they immediately show interest
Some retics and burmese and 2of 8 chondros will actively slide down from their perches to be snuggled? Desire of comfort??

4m retic that had been pretty badly mistreated
It will attack from absolute safety deep in its hide with zero provocation?? Hatred??

Probably there are reasons which exclude any of these from being emotions
But most keepers have had similar experiences where one snake or lizard is very different to others in exactly the same situation
We can simply explain that by saying they each have different personalities?
Maybe to have a 'personality' you need to have emotions?

That was a very short list I gave that anyone who comes here can see every day and that is why I used them
Maybe its just my training methods?
Maybe its "I dont know"