• Check out the new Feedback and suggestions forum. This adds the ability to add ideas for the site and upvote/downvote them. It would be great to hear from you all in how we can boost site activity and who would like to assist with some exciting ideas from Rob and I.
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champagne

Well-Known Member
No one is going to stop the breeding of jags, zebras other cross morphs, so what should be done with the sibs? I personally think that they should be culled, so that these mongrels don't get sold and then passed off as "pure".
 

butters

Well-Known Member
I hate to say it but I agree with you.

Although I can appreciate a nice hybrid I will probably never knowingly own one and will never produce any hybrids from my collection. Just dont float my boat and prefer my species as pure as i can. Also i would have issues in producing something myself knowing i would be culling some of the offspring.

Reality is they are here to stay.

The only pro as far as I am concerned is a visually appealing snake.

Everthing else to do with them is a con.



just my opinion
 

KaotikJezta

Very Well-Known Member
I personally think that people should not breed any animal that has to have offspring killed because they are not 'up to standard' or because they are 'mongrels'. They are living, breathing, healthy little snakes and I would rather see morph breeding eradicated if the outcome is going to be killing them.
 

champagne

Well-Known Member
At least jags where always through to be crosses and sibs are labelled, but what happens to the zebra sibs that were crossed back to a jungle? They will be sold as pure jungles.
 

TrueBlue

Very Well-Known Member
I personally think that they shouldnt be bred at all, simple as that.

As said before anyone that is going to breed snakes with the intention of killing some shouldnt be keeping snakes in the first place. It will end up comming back and biting them in the bum for sure, just wait and see. Its all ready happened. And tough titty to them I say. lol.
 

cement

Very Well-Known Member
I have a moral issue with it, and for the sake of owning a "ZEBRA" (big deal!!), there still only snakes for christ sake.
I get to euthanase enough snakes thanks very much without having to kill the ones I breed.
 

Newhere

Well-Known Member
I've seen jungle jag sibs advertised as pure jungles, so will these things end up growing as big as a coastal because they are half or one quarter coastal?

You will never convince people to start culling their sibs as that is money they could of made selling them off as whatever species they look like. Lets not forget that the people that breed these animals are motivated by money and nothing nothing else.

They should at least advertise them for what they really are and see how many people want them.
 

saintanger

Very Well-Known Member
i don't agree killing them just cause they are mungrels but the breeders/ sellers should advertise them for what they are. and if they don't they should be named and shamed - maybe we should have a site were people can name and shame sellers/ breeders who lie about what they are selling. as i know we can not name and shame here, so many buyers buy something and then find out wen its to late.
 
C

Cold-B-Hearts

Guest
why cull a sib because its a cross.
a Indian women and a Australia man have a child together. should it be culled because its a cross?
 

andynic07

Very Well-Known Member
I think a pedigree system should be available. That way if someone wants to on sell something as something else it makes it hard or it is sold without papers without guarantee of heritage at a lower price. Maybe it is too late for this system but I think it would make things a lot clearer and maybe reduce the animosity around the place. It would work equally as well for jags and crosses as it would for pure breeds.

- - - Updated - - -

why cull a sib because its a cross.
a Indian women and a Australia man have a child together. should it be culled because its a cross?
I think the idea of it being culled is to stop it being on sold as something else rather than it being a cross.
 

champagne

Well-Known Member
They will continue to be bred so what do you think should be done about the sib problem? Not breeding jags is not a realist solution because it won't happen
 
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Stevo2

Well-Known Member
Culled and the practice of breeding hybrids should cease. Like either is ever going to happen... *sigh*

Also happens in parrots and people are messing around with hybrids because they want to a) breed something different, b) breed something 'shiny' that will sell for $$ or, c) because they couldn't bare to part the 'happy' couple of different species and making babies is every bodies right... (never mind that forced pairings are hardly a matter of free choice...).
 
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Trimeresurus

Guest
why cull a sib because its a cross.
a Indian women and a Australia man have a child together. should it be culled because its a cross?

If they're going to be bred (which they are) cull the sibs.
 
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longqi

Very Well-Known Member
I personally dont believe hybrid breeders are only in it for the money

Some are
But others genuinely seem to believe that their breeding programs will benefit the pet industry
They are probably quite correct about that

This is where the water starts getting murky

Breeder wants x/x/x
So they start mixing and matching the best of each sub species together
A few come out nice and are kept
A few come out not too bad and are sold
Most come out ordinary

As far as I know all legal documents in Aus regarding sale of reptiles include the full scientific name
Even if a hybrid breeder wanted to they cannot simply say Carpet Python etc
So no matter what mix it is they must put one of cheynei,bredli,spilota etc etc on the document
Then you have a legal document stating that the hybrid is not a hybrid but a 'pure' xxxxx
With some hybrids their parentage is clear and they can easily be picked as crosses
With others they look like either parent and can easily be mistaken as 'pure' lines

So they only possile way to maintain 'pure lines' in the future is to cull hybrid siblings

Question
Do you want to be part of an industry that kills healthy babies because they dont fit into plan XXXX???

Question
Is there a workable alternative to culling hybrid siblings???
 

Jacknife

Very Well-Known Member
I think if they're clearly labelled as sibs of 'whatever' species then there is nothing wrong, there will always be someone willing to give an animal a home. Far better than culling them for the sake of convenience.
Unscroupulous people will always have their hands in anything and everything, it's part of human nature and free market economy.
Making laws and blanket policies on what can be bred and what must be culled ect. will do nothing to ever stop it happening, and if anything will see a rise in people passing off 'x' snake as 'y' snake as they - as forced by law - must call it something it clearly is not.
 

longqi

Very Well-Known Member
I think if they're clearly labelled as sibs of 'whatever' species then there is nothing wrong, there will always be someone willing to give an animal a home.

That sentence is the core of the problem
Breeder produces 15 hatchies
10 are given away or sold as hybrid siblings
They look like mum or dad; not crosses
Owner then gets bored and sells them
On paper they are 'pure' xxxx
New owner breeds them thinking they are 'pure' and sells the result as 'pure'
One or two generations later the mixed genes start showing up

So culling hybrid siblings is NOT just a matter of convenience
 

champagne

Well-Known Member
I personally dont believe hybrid breeders are only in it for the money

Some are
But others genuinely seem to believe that their breeding programs will benefit the pet industry
They are probably quite correct about that

This is where the water starts getting murky

Breeder wants x/x/x
So they start mixing and matching the best of each sub species together
A few come out nice and are kept
A few come out not too bad and are sold
Most come out ordinary

As far as I know all legal documents in Aus regarding sale of reptiles include the full scientific name
Even if a hybrid breeder wanted to they cannot simply say Carpet Python etc
So no matter what mix it is they must put one of cheynei,bredli,spilota etc etc on the document
Then you have a legal document stating that the hybrid is not a hybrid but a 'pure' xxxxx
With some hybrids their parentage is clear and they can easily be picked as crosses
With others they look like either parent and can easily be mistaken as 'pure' lines

So they only possile way to maintain 'pure lines' in the future is to cull hybrid siblings

Question
Do you want to be part of an industry that kills healthy babies because they dont fit into plan XXXX???

Question
Is there a workable alternative to culling hybrid siblings???

I don't want to be apart of a hobby that kills healthy animal for the sake of some pretty ones but unfortunately that horse has bolted. I don't think anything can be done now because no one culled these sibs at the start and now it's seen as being fine to cross breed anything you want. The hobby is split forever but you will always find pure stock, they will just cost more and be less around. I do believe it will get to a point where pure animals will be taken from the wild illegally to get known genetics back into the hobby. Sad really
 

Jacknife

Very Well-Known Member
That sentence is the core of the problem
Breeder produces 15 hatchies
10 are given away or sold as hybrid siblings
They look like mum or dad; not crosses
Owner then gets bored and sells them
On paper they are 'pure' xxxx

New owner breeds them thinking they are 'pure' and sells the result as 'pure'
One or two generations later the mixed genes start showing up

So culling hybrid siblings is NOT just a matter of convenience

I think you missed my point, the above highlighted that you mention is the unscrupulous jerk part of the equation that exists. As long as they are passed on with the knowledge they are sibs/hybrids even though on paper they are only 'x' I don't see the problem.

Last week I sold a pair of diamond x jungles which were Jag sibs. They were sold to me with the clear knowledge of what they were and I sold them with VERY clear and specific information of what they were. As they're roughly 75% Diamond they are listed as Spilota Spilota but quite clearly are not pure diamonds in any way from appearances, and there is no way they can be legitimately passed off as them.

But I guess therein lies the difference - I'm a conscienscous owner and not an unscrupulous jerk...

I think the real core of the issue when it comes to hiding a snakes genetic makeup is an issue with state licensing departments and their taxa held lists. If hybrids/sibs were on schedule lists then they would be able to be labelled and sold as exactly what they are instead of what they nearest resemble.
 

andynic07

Very Well-Known Member
I think you missed my point, the above highlighted that you mention is the unscrupulous jerk part of the equation that exists. As long as they are passed on with the knowledge they are sibs/hybrids even though on paper they are only 'x' I don't see the problem.

Last week I sold a pair of diamond x jungles which were Jag sibs. They were sold to me with the clear knowledge of what they were and I sold them with VERY clear and specific information of what they were. As they're roughly 75% Diamond they are listed as Spilota Spilota but quite clearly are not pure diamonds in any way from appearances, and there is no way they can be legitimately passed off as them.

But I guess therein lies the difference - I'm a conscienscous owner and not an unscrupulous jerk...

I think the real core of the issue when it comes to hiding a snakes genetic makeup is an issue with state licensing departments and their taxa held lists. If hybrids/sibs were on schedule lists then they would be able to be labelled and sold as exactly what they are instead of what they nearest resemble.

That is what I was trying to achieve with bringing in pedigrees.
 

TrueBlue

Very Well-Known Member
longqi,-
The statement you made, "the only possible way to maintain pure lines in the future is to cull sibblings", is wrong.
All my animals are pure and always will be and i dont need to cull anything to maintain this for the future.
 
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