What should be done with sibs?

[wokka]

and if they don't they should be named and shamed - maybe we should have a site were people can name and shame sellers/ breeders who lie about what they are selling. as i know we can not name and shame here, so many buyers buy something and then find out wen its to late.

Isn't that what facebook is for?

 

[saintanger]

lol, i guess so, but not everyone uses face book. and even the ones who do not all see wen someone gets mentioned for selling something as something else. if there was an actual page were people could put sellers/ breeders names, what state they are in and what they did to them with a pic of the animal sold. then we could do a quick search before buying anything.

 

[Newhere]

Yeah I don't use facebook and would like to know who is dodgy and who to stay away from. Lots of the older people on here that have been in the hobby for years would know all the shady people and who to avoid and it would be good to have all that info available.

Only thing is people could just put false info on there and ruin an honest persons reputation and that would be a shame.

 

[AmazingMorelia]

In time alot of people will just do what we do, and that is we wont buy any carpets from anyone who keeps and breeds cross bred animals. So many jungle jag sibs are been sold off as pure jungles, so many albino Darwins sold are infact albino crosses, and so many jag sibs are sold off as pure coastals it isnt funny.
In 10 years time a pure diamond or hot yellow jungle is going to be worth more than a jag or zebra.

 

[longqi]

I think you missed my point, the above highlighted that you mention is the unscrupulous jerk part of the equation that exists. As long as they are passed on with the knowledge they are sibs/hybrids even though on paper they are only 'x' I don't see the problem.

Last week I sold a pair of diamond x jungles which were Jag sibs. They were sold to me with the clear knowledge of what they were and I sold them with VERY clear and specific information of what they were. As they're roughly 75% Diamond they are listed as Spilota Spilota but quite clearly are not pure diamonds in any way from appearances, and there is no way they can be legitimately passed off as them.

But I guess therein lies the difference - I'm a conscienscous owner and not an unscrupulous jerk...

I think the real core of the issue when it comes to hiding a snakes genetic makeup is an issue with state licensing departments and their taxa held lists. If hybrids/sibs were on schedule lists then they would be able to be labelled and sold as exactly what they are instead of what they nearest resemble.

If the reptiles are visually very clearly crosses that is ok
Main problem is when the crosses dont look like crosses and are resold a couple of times

While it remains illegal to breed hybrids no governing body will include them on a list

No way the cat is getting back in the bag now
So someone in authority needs to make a stand on this one

 

[TrueBlue]

AmazingMorelia,

IMO they already are worth more.
Anyone who pays good money,(or any money for that matter), for a peice of rubbish hybrid, jag or what ever, needs their head read. But hey as they say,' theres one born every minute'. lol.

Pure animals especially locality pure animals will be worth their weight in gold in the not to distant future. Its starting to happen already.
Maybe we should be thanking the jagheads and cross breeders, in the end is all they are doing is setting up an awsome long term market for us honest people in the hobby. When they have only had a short window to rip people off with.

 

[longqi]

longqi,-
The statement you made, "the only possible way to maintain pure lines in the future is to cull sibblings", is wrong.
All my animals are pure and always will be and i dont need to cull anything to maintain this for the future.

My bad
I should have included the word hybrid before siblings

 

[TrueBlue]

Cool.

 

[Snowman]

What if they were used as food? Is it okay to breed one animal and cull it for food but not another?
Personal opinion is I'm not into JAGs and zebs.

 

[longqi]

What if they were used as food? Is it okay to breed one animal and cull it for food but not another?
Personal opinion is I'm not into JAGs and zebs.

We all have to ask one question
Do I want to be part of a industry that kills unwanted/unsaleable results of breeding projects??

 

[ingie]

We are all part of that industry already- (well, similar) the rat industry (as different to the food for humans industry, because we need to eat to survive, but we don't need to breed reptiles for pets, who then need to be fed). Seems hypocritical for it to be fine for one animal but not another. I don't agree with anything going to waste though, and I have no interest in ever breeding or owning Jags. I don't think it is an outrage for people to humanely cull anything so long as it is used for a purpose and not wasted (eg food).

I would not like to be involved in something where animals are culled because they aren't wanted, and then are wasted by being thrown in the bin. I think it is such a waste that all the dog and cats that are put to sleep every year are not able to be recycled into food for animals or something non wasteful.

 

[Snowman]

We all have to ask one question
Do I want to be part of a industry that kills unwanted/unsaleable results of breeding projects??

Not all. It's not a question for us in WA. Land of the pure imbriacata and variegata.. Maybe our over regulated system got something right?

- - - Updated - - -

We are all part of that industry already- (well, similar) the rat industry (as different to the food for humans industry, because we need to eat to survive, but we don't need to breed reptiles for pets, who then need to be fed). Seems hypocritical for it to be fine for one animal but not another. I don't agree with anything going to waste though, and I have no interest in ever breeding or owning Jags. But I don't think it is an outrage for people to humanely cull anything so long as it is used for a purpose and not wasted (eg food).

That's what I was getting at...

 

[ingie]

Sorry I edited my post a bit

 

[Jacknife]

If the reptiles are visually very clearly crosses that is ok
Main problem is when the crosses dont look like crosses and are resold a couple of times

While it remains illegal to breed hybrids no governing body will include them on a list

No way the cat is getting back in the bag now
So someone in authority needs to make a stand on this one

I think we finally see eye to eye on this

 

[reptinate]

I think they should be kept by the person breeding them or sold to trusted buyers. Surely something can be worked out? Couldn't a pedigree system be set up, like someone else said?
Otherwise they should not be bred. And anyone who does breed them and then kills off some perfectly healthy babies should be named and shamed. There is no justification for killing healthy babies for no reason. I don't care whether some may be sold as pure later on. And like I said in the other thread. Anyone who does do it does not love reptiles, IMO. Don't know how you could claim to when you had no problem killing off perfectly healthy individuals.

I don't really have a problem with certain morphs if the sibs aren't killed. But people wonder why some are so vocally against them. This sort of disgusting thing is why! Brings more trouble than it's worth. If such a horrible thing has to be part of the breeding of them, then why can't people just stand back and say 'Is this right?' 'Should we be doing this?' 'Should we allow this?'

What't more important. Stopping thousands of healthy hatchies dying. Or a nice new pattern? I hope we can find a way other than killing them. But a big part of me thinks some won't bother. Some breeders will choose to just kill them.

People will want morphs, breeders will want to create new morphs and get the money. All the while all those innocent snakes will die.

Seems like such a lack of compassion.

 

[Red-Ink]

Some sibs are pretty... can you de-sex snakes?

 

[ronhalling]

I personally dont believe hybrid breeders are only in it for the money Some are But others genuinely seem to believe that their breeding programs will benefit the pet industry They are probably quite correct about that This is where the water starts getting murky Breeder wants x/x/x So they start mixing and matching the best of each sub species together A few come out nice and are kept A few come out not too bad and are sold Most come out ordinary As far as I know all legal documents in Aus regarding sale of reptiles include the full scientific name Even if a hybrid breeder wanted to they cannot simply say Carpet Python etc So no matter what mix it is they must put one of cheynei,bredli,spilota etc etc on the document Then you have a legal document stating that the hybrid is not a hybrid but a 'pure' xxxxx With some hybrids their parentage is clear and they can easily be picked as crosses With others they look like either parent and can easily be mistaken as 'pure' lines So they only possile way to maintain 'pure lines' in the future is to cull hybrid siblings Question Do you want to be part of an industry that kills healthy babies because they dont fit into plan XXXX??? Question Is there a workable alternative to culling hybrid siblings???

I think the following pics pretty well sums up what longqi has said, if this was available at the right price i would have no problem buying it, morph, jag, jag sib be damned ....................Ron

 

[Jeffa]

I am also very worried about the prospect of a trial and error newbie breeder that crosses some non sellable snakes but does not have the heart to freeze them. So he lets them go in the state forest down the road so they can muddy the wild populations of snakes. (hell, they are doing it with corns)!

Its sick enough to muddy the hobby with non trueful sellers, but to screw up the wild populations genetics just really annoys me!!!

 

[Lawra]

Woma food! What a great idea

 

[Umbral]

The issue which name and shame threads or Facebook is that you see so many people posting what is this threads, the replies vary greatly at at the end of the day people who are selling pure animals may end up tarnished.

Each to their own I like my pure animals but could understand people cross breeding, the only issue I have is with scumbags trying to get more money by conning people into buying something by lying about what it is and ruining future generations chances of owning a pure animal.