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Do Reptiles have emotions?

  • Yes

    Votes: 61 55.0%
  • No

    Votes: 35 31.5%
  • I'm not sure

    Votes: 15 13.5%

  • Total voters
    111
  • Poll closed .
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Not open for further replies.
being hungry i feel is debatable, stress is def an emotion,

I disagree here. Stress isn't an emotion it is a sympton. If an animal is hungry it goes looking for food, the longer it can't find food it's body/system becomes stressed and it's body eventually fails to function therefore it cannot go on looking for food, collapses and dies. we have probably all seen enough documentaries on animals being followed that are injured and so can't hunt effectively and eventually die. They don't look any different except thinner from not eating.
 
So far this has been a great thread
Most of you know my views on this subject so I wont bother repeating them

But now that more input has been given I would relish the possibility of comparing the brain patterns of say
one of my breeding snakes that rarely get handled
and one of my display snakes that get handled frequently and are treated as one of my family
In my opinion their 'attitudes' are very very different
Possibly their brain patterns are too??

If I present a different scenario here what is your opinion of it

If a doctor selects two patients for brain testing [my only knowledge of brain testing is from horror movies]
One is the head nurse of the testing station who has been begging for an opportunity to be involved
The second is a someone of similar appearance who was kidnapped from a jungle village by force and strapped into place for the test
Surely the results would be completely different??
I would assume that one would show anticipation, joy, elation etc etc
The other would show fear etc

So would any test to prove that reptiles can have or cannot have emotions need to use one 'pet' and one 'wild' reptile?? or multiples thereof
 
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Have not read all yet, but looking forward to it when time allows. The differents between human and animals is, we have free will, animals don't. This has got to do with emotions.
 
So far this has been a great thread
Most of you know my views on this subject so I wont bother repeating them

But now that more input has been given I would relish the possibility of comparing the brain patterns of say
one of my breeding snakes that rarely get handled
and one of my display snakes that get handled frequently and are treated as one of my family
In my opinion their 'attitudes' are very very different
Possibly their brain patterns are too??

If I present a different scenario here what is your opinion of it

If a doctor selects two patients for brain testing [my only knowledge of brain testing is from horror movies]
One is the head nurse of the testing station who has been begging for an opportunity to be involved
The second is a someone of similar appearance who was kidnapped from a jungle village by force and strapped into place for the test
Surely the results would be completely different??
I would assume that one would show anticipation, joy, elation etc etc
The other would show fear etc

So would any test to prove that reptiles can have or cannot have emotions need to use one 'pet' and one 'wild' reptile?? or multiples thereof

Not really. In your example, it would not only be the willing participant that would present emotional responses. The nurse that was kidnapped would also clearly exhibit the ability to display emotion - terror, sadness, frustration, anger, loss etc.

Many more complex wild animals have clearly demonstrated emotional responses and attachment - they have this ability whether they are captives or wild so I don't feel that a researcher would "need to use one 'pet' and one 'wild.'" As I stated earlier, if the animal simply does not have the ability to learn at such a level, wild or captive makes no difference - you're still no more important to them as a keeper.
 
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I'm rather on the fence. I definitely think my pythons have different behaviours, and not sure if I would use the term personalities. Either way, as a lot of people do with pets, I definitely anthropomorphise them ;)

Have not read all yet, but looking forward to it when time allows. The differents between human and animals is, we have free will, animals don't. This has got to do with emotions.

Evidence? We're just as constrained by biology as other animals. We are susceptible to systems of reward/punishment. Rewards affecting the reward centre of our brain, and the idea of punishment can induce feelings of guilt, etc. It appears basic biology and a complex brain causes deep, complex emotions to manifest themselves which at times we have trouble understanding.

Not to mention a lot of modern Psychology views the brain as an information processor. Or, to put it crudely, a kind of thermostat. We process information and notice discrepancies (I'm hungry), then we process that information and calculate the best way to remove or minimise the discrepancy (I should eat something -> need to find foot -> etc).
 
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I take that point Melissa but would the actual brain pattern readings be the same or can these machines differentiate between emotions such as happy and sad???

its interesting that you used the word if in your last sentence
If the animal does not have a capability to learn I totally agree with you
But it seems that some snakes and some lizards do appear to have some capacity to learn??

Or is that just them following the leader so to speak??
 
No, I wouldn't say that, and for you to ask me in an accusatory way is almost putting words in my mouth. My point is that we don't know if reptiles have anything close to emotions, but to say they don't because they lack facial expressions is not a decent explanation.

Well now your anthropomorphioghkr (what ever the hell that word is) my post. How you pick up an accusatory way is beyond me. Its great that you are so keen to get across your point (however, you admit yourself that you don't have enough experience to have formed an opinion.)
When it comes to showing emotion, it mostly comes from facial expression. I have seen drawings of monkeys with different fascial expressions for each of their emotions, it helps the zoo keepers to read the animal.
To "show no emotion" is a form of fascial expression. Its a blank look. People in court have it, as they hear their sentences being read out when they know they are guilty and have lost all control over their life. I am sure you have heard the term
'Showing no emotion'.
An emotion is not an act. I could do anything, or act out any number of nice or nasty procedures but without the facial expressions, in other words with a 'blank look' you would be wondering where my head was at.
Emotions, on the other hand, come from the heart, and without thought. This is transmitted through the face.

What I asked in those questions up there that you find so accusatory (in your brief moment of insecurity) are examples of a snake at what must be considered their most emotional time. (If they have emotions). Reproduction, protective instinct, nurturing of young.
To turn a blind eye to these questions is paramount to arguing for the sake of an argument, rather then actually being in the field and making decisions based on REAL time experience. You can sit on the computer and hypothesise, guess and be as intelligent as you like on these forums of free thinking experts, but until you have done your apprenticeship, and then some, don't discount what more experienced people have to say.
You will be very hard pressed to find anybody who deals with lots of reptiles, very often, for a long time, who will be happy to say that reptiles are emotional creatures, and there is a good reason for that.

If this explanation isn't decent enough, then bad luck. Go back to your snake collection and your wild reptile field work and in years to come when you've bred different species and dealt with hundreds of animals both wild and captive, then come back and we'll talk about reptile emotions.

Great thread Lonqgi! I can hear the cogs turning, as the young scientists scrabble for the dictionary's and smart pills. Lol!!
 
Well now your anthropomorphioghkr (what ever the hell that word is) my post. How you pick up an accusatory way is beyond me. Its great that you are so keen to get across your point (however, you admit yourself that you don't have enough experience to have formed an opinion.)
When it comes to showing emotion, it mostly comes from facial expression. I have seen drawings of monkeys with different fascial expressions for each of their emotions, it helps the zoo keepers to read the animal.
To "show no emotion" is a form of fascial expression. Its a blank look. People in court have it, as they hear their sentences being read out when they know they are guilty and have lost all control over their life. I am sure you have heard the term
'Showing no emotion'.
An emotion is not an act. I could do anything, or act out any number of nice or nasty procedures but without the facial expressions, in other words with a 'blank look' you would be wondering where my head was at.
Emotions, on the other hand, come from the heart, and without thought. This is transmitted through the face.

What I asked in those questions up there that you find so accusatory (in your brief moment of insecurity) are examples of a snake at what must be considered their most emotional time. (If they have emotions). Reproduction, protective instinct, nurturing of young.
To turn a blind eye to these questions is paramount to arguing for the sake of an argument, rather then actually being in the field and making decisions based on REAL time experience. You can sit on the computer and hypothesise, guess and be as intelligent as you like on these forums of free thinking experts, but until you have done your apprenticeship, and then some, don't discount what more experienced people have to say.
You will be very hard pressed to find anybody who deals with lots of reptiles, very often, for a long time, who will be happy to say that reptiles are emotional creatures, and there is a good reason for that.

If this explanation isn't decent enough, then bad luck. Go back to your snake collection and your wild reptile field work and in years to come when you've bred different species and dealt with hundreds of animals both wild and captive, then come back and we'll talk about reptile emotions.

Great thread Lonqgi! I can hear the cogs turning, as the young scientists scrabble for the dictionary's and smart pills. Lol!!

Finally a post worth reading. Well put cement
 
I take that point Melissa but would the actual brain pattern readings be the same or can these machines differentiate between emotions such as happy and sad???

its interesting that you used the word if in your last sentence
If the animal does not have a capability to learn I totally agree with you
But it seems that some snakes and some lizards do appear to have some capacity to learn??

Or is that just them following the leader so to speak??

I do not think they can differentiate between "happy" and "sad" as such. They do differentiate between hungry and fed, correct and incorrect body temperatures and feeling threatened or secure though.

Would the brain pattern reading be the same? I guess that would depend on what the circumstances were at the time of the reading. There is one study that I am aware of that investigated the effects of handling on a python. The results showed that the python did, over time, become accustomed to handling (the animal did not seek it out, nor present signs of enjoyment). The animal displayed a higher level of stress during earlier handling sessions, and with time appeared to be less stressed when handled. The animal always presented with the lowest outward signs of stress within the enclosure though. The results of this study can obviously be interpreted in many ways. Becoming slowly acclimatised to something and displaying emotion/enjoyment is very different. It should be noted however, that many wild caught specimens have displayed very little outwards signs of stress when handled without ever having come in contact with humans. There are also captive specimens that appear to be unable to become acclimatised to handling.

So in response to your question, brain pattern readings may differ between an animal that has had frequent, controlled contact with humans to those of an animal with no contact. They may also differ, but with the opposite results - a WC animal may display less stress when in contact with humans than a frequently handled, captive animal. Animals are individual creatures, and frequently perceive threat and react to stimuli differently than other specimens within the same species.
 
This has been a heaps good thread.a lot of what has been said,i admit,is way above my head.There sure are some smart cookies out there.And I suppose to all the clever people I look like a dunce,but I see it as if you're scared of me you will try to run away from my hands,if you are not afraid of me,you trust,love me you will come to my hands with willingness.of your own free will.

Like I said I guess im somewhat of a simpleton in some ways.
 
...I see it as if you're scared of me you will try to run away from my hands,if you are not afraid of me,you trust,love me you will come to my hands with willingness.of your own free will.
You almost got it right. Leave out just about the whole second half and you will get what we are trying to convey :p
 
An interesting thread Longqi, with some diametrically opposed views. If you don't mind I would like to contribute.

My understanding is that the one quality/behaviour/advantage, call it what you will, that distinguishes us, humans from the rest of the animal kingdom, is not necessarily the size of our brain, but rather what we do with it. At this point in time, I am not aware of any other species on the planet that has the capacity for abstract thought.

Again I believe there are 3 types of "responses to environmental stimuli" that we call learning. The first is instinct, the second is conditioned, and the third is cognitive.

All life on this planet has the capacity to and does respond to the first, instinct. There are a growing group of species that can and do respond to the second, conditioned learning, (Pavlov's dog demonstration). Members of the third group are much harder to find. Obviously humans have the capacity to learn cognitively, but what other species can cognitively think its way through a problem. Some will argue that some dolphin and whale species as well as certain apes have the ability to cognitively (think) learn to problem solve. I believe they respond to environmental stimuli.

What places us at the top of the tree is quite simple really, it is our ability to look at something and ask ourselves WHY? That is abstract thought. To look for answers to questions we dream up ourselves. Why are we here? How did the universe get started. How far away is Andromeda. I am pretty sure there are not any apes or dolphins asking themselves these questions.

The crux of this discussion is what constitutes emotions. As far as I am concerned emotions are feelings, feelings are irrational abstract thoughts. So I do not believe that any animals other then humans feel emotion?

I can already hear the flamers responding with, what nonsense or worse still. I am bracing for the "My dog feels fear, it shakes when I yell at it"'comment. Conditioned response, learned. "My cat rubs her face on my leg to get a tickle", again conditioned response. I actually have dragons that run up to the front of the enclosure when I come into the room, again conditioned response, they have learned to associate me with food and respond accordingly

The arguement then is when an animal in the wild turns and runs from another animal or indeed from us, is this process the manifestation of fear. We interpret the animals behaviour as fear. Does the animal understand the concept of fear, no? Then this is instinct or at best conditioned learning. Because it is not an irrational thought process or feeling.

In my view emotions are feelings and therefor abstract thoughts.
 
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I have PMed some to a few members on here before, and I might have posted in previous threads - I'll scan through and have a look.

Otherwise, I'm at work at the moment so will have to take a look through my material when I get home.

I'll PM you and well done for being interested in material other than that posted on internet forums - you seem to be a rarity ;)

I'm also very interested in this material, its rather difficult to find, and what I have found on it has been simplistic, and lacking in information.
 
I'm also very interested in this material, its rather difficult to find, and what I have found on it has been simplistic, and lacking in information.

I work with someone who currently also works at the Australian Venom Research Unit, so he has access to a lot of good material. I'm at work again today however, but I'll try and dig something up and see if I can get it into a PM for those that have asked later tonight..
 
44.44% plays 44.44%
At the present moment the game is a tie
I personally dont think either side is winning in the debate [but I suppose that is open to debate]

That is a really good thing as everyone has widely differing opinions but this thread has brought out some excellent replies without too much bickering
Thanks to all of you as you have obviously put time and thought into your replies

Great big thanks to whoever put the poll up
 
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