Axanthic coastal????? pics

[Jungle_Freak]

In my opinion the grey coastal does look axanthic to me .

I think its a good idea to start a thread like this and give examples of what colour phases are out there so all of us can be on the look out for colour or pattern traits for future morph projects etc
IE .. Hypos , Tri Stripes , Axanthics .

All these Coastal Carpet Python traits appear naturally in the wild ,, as far as I know .

Hopefully in time the axanthic colour phases or trait will be proven and
then bred together with hypos to create offspring carrying the double traits for a Ghost Morph Coastal .
Now that would be a interesting new colour phase ??????????????????

my 2 cents


Roger

 

[TrueBlue]

All hypos carry an amount of black, hypo is reduced black not a lack of it.
A true axanthic animal lacks yellow/orange pigment, not a reduced amount. As for the white ventral, you can get carpets of pretty much all forms that can have a white ventral, some with little to no speckling.
The reason i mentioned the amount of them in the wild boa, is because they are common, way more common than you would think. With carpets being so variable, imo they are just another common form of coastal.

zobo, i never said you cant breed for greys, you can pretty much breed for any form of coastal, thats not rocket science. But as said imo they are not true axanthic animals.
I only mentioned the black and white animal because it is the only coastal that ive ever seen that imo could be called a true axanthic coastal.
I dont mean any offence here at all if you have taken it that way, but the title of your thread had a number of question marks, which lead me to belive you were after opinions, ive just stated my opinion thats all.

 

[waruikazi]

Just to throw a spanner in the works. Depending on which definition of axanthic you subscribe to it either means lacking in yellow pigment or a complete lack of yellow pigment. I think i prefer the latter because there can be less confusion about what is and isn't axanthic. Maybe we need to coin a new term 'Hypoxanthic' to describe a reduce yellow pigment.

TB: What i have seen on US forums is that axanthic carpets brown out within a couple of years, they don't stay grey. I would assume that the brown pigment is cause by the erythrophores (red/oranges) so perhaps the black and white coastals that you have seen have a double mutation of axanthic and anerythristic.

Edit: I just found a reference to hypoxanthic in corn snakes meaning reduced yellow pigment not a complete lack.

 

[Colin]

http://www.vmsherp.com/LCMutations.htm

Axanthism

This genetic mutation slightly more difficult to comprehend. Red and yellow pigmentation is not synthesized by xanthophores. There is no red or yellow pigmentation present in these animals at all. Axanthic animals typically appear as black and white, with intermediate shades of gray.

However, in some axanthic specimens, yellow pigments in the form of carotenoids may be retained in the xanthophores. Additionally, certain iridophores may reflect light in such a manner as to appear yellow. Ordinarily, the iridophores are located in the same areas as the melanophores and are masked by the presence of the black pigment. This condition may cause dark areas to appear brownish, rather than a pure black. It is certain that multiple alleles are at work here, each uniquely influencing the appearance of the specimens involved.

Hypoxanthism

Yellow pigmentation is greatly reduced in the xanthophores. However, yellow pigments in the form of carotenoids may still be retained in the xanthophores. This accumulates with age and may be a major contributing factor in the overall appearance of some animals. It would be expected that red pigmentation would also be reduced in these animals. There are most likely several morphs of captive reptiles which are hypoxanthic masquerading around under other 'genetic labels'. Few herpetoculturists have access to the technology required to ascertain the exact nature of the mutations in today's collections. Fewer still would be willing to sacrifice specimens for examination! Myself included!

Hyperxanthism

Hyperxanthic animals develop intense amounts of yellow pigmentation as they grow, most likely as the result of extreme carotenoid retention. Occasionally, the extreme yellow coloration may be accentuated into an orange coloration where none would normally be present.

Additionally, they seem to have reduced amounts of red pigmentation present. This would most likely be malfunctioning of erythrophores, and perhaps this mutation would more properly be called anerythrism. Unfortunately, this term has already been applied to another mutation (see Anerythrism 'Type A'). Perhaps much of the confusion surrounding cornsnake genetics is simply the result of inappropriate naming of the earliest mutations, leading to confusion over the mechanics involved.

 

[Southside Morelia]

Great thread, very interesting!!!!!

Now for the "not so mutation literates" /readers...me mainly, we need pictures...lol

 

[herpkeeper]

one of my 06' hatchies that has no yellow pigmentation ! this thread is not about how common this form is in the wild, but a general lack of yellow pigment, be it black & white or black & grey, there would be varying levels of "axanthism" as we are talking about the single most variable species there is Coastal Carpet Pythons (Morelia Spilota McDowelli)

 

[Jungle_Freak]

Yes Herpkeeper that one looks axanthic too ,
its good to see a few possible axanthic projects underway ,


Roger

 

[TrueBlue]

Sorry Mark but you are wrong.!
Read colins post, a true axanthic animal lacks ALL yellow/red pigment not varying degrees of it.

Heaps of young coastals look like the pic you posted. Wait till its older and youll see what i mean as i can see a cream/yellow tinge thru the white already.
As ive told you many many times, imo your so called black and white carpet is not axanthic, just a common old carpet. As you just said carpets are probally one of the most variable pythons around and imo its just another "common" form of them.

 

[Retic]

Herpkeeper, that is a beautiful carpet, it will be very interesting to see how it progresses.

 

[ihaveherps]

Bingo Colin, alot more concise than what i had to say, but saved me typing.

Zobo, not detracting from the animal at all, it is obviously different from the average... good luck proving it out, you may well be on the right track, though the flip-side is also that it may be a random colour variation that shows no reliable mode of inheritence.

The hobby here is taking leaps and bounds as to what weird and wonderful things will hatch in the way of morphs, as happening upon the right genetics is directly proportional to the amount of animals being bred. The little debate going on here shows that there is a need to prove modes of inheritence before naming the trait... I mean, to me that snake ticks all the right boxes, yet till its proven its still only a grey coastal.

 

[Retic]

Exactly right Simon, Jason isn't saying that the snake is axanthic just that it could through future breeding very well show itself to be, as you say it ticks all the right boxes and the fact that it occurs in wild snakes is irrelevant as all morphs to some degree can be seen in the wild.

 

[TrueBlue]

boa, your right pretty much all forms and morphs are found in the wild, but the relevant issue i was trying to put accross is that because of how common they are, imo grey coastals are nothing special, just another common occuring form of coastal. Simple as that.
Hypos are also fairly common in the wild, no where near as common as greys, but still more common than most people would realise.
Im not the only one who thinks this. I know of lots of people around the country atm that are having a good laugh at all the claims of axanthic carpets.
Most people need to get out from behind their computers and spend some time out in the field, it would surely open their eyes alot more to whats out there and how common alot of these so called special animals are. Then im sure most, if not all, would agree that they are infact just another common occouring form of coastal.

 

[Colin]

Bingo Colin, alot more concise than what i had to say, but saved me typing.

Its from the link I posted at the top of my post
its a great site with good definitions and genetic info in my opinion..

thats a nice looking coastal Herpkeeper


I have a question please to anyone that know the answer. any pics to illustrate would be great (thanks)

Q) what do you get when you cross an axanthic with a hypo ?

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Real axanthics and Hypos? Or Australian Axanthics and Hypos? If Australian, then you get Coastal carpets!!! Not to sure. Cross reference it on that site you were using.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I think it would be ghost as the lack of black would decrease the pattern. No orange and yellow pigment, and very little black pigment would leave you with a snake that is pale grey. This is what is known as ghost.

 

[Stewydead]

i agree with trueblue, i own afew coastals all different in colour phases but still all very common.

 

[Colin]

I think it would be ghost as the lack of black would decrease the pattern. No orange and yellow pigment, and very little black pigment would leave you with a snake that is pale grey. This is what is known as ghost.

thanks. thats what I thought, but wasnt exactly sure.


found this link too

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/collection/pythons/ball/ghost_hypo_ball_python.asp

 

[Sdaji]

Q) what do you get when you cross an axanthic with a hypo ?

A normal-looking carpet which is het for axanthic, or a double het if the hypo is hypo because of a Mendelian allele.

TrueBlue: Grey Carpets may be common in the wild, but maybe that just means axanthics are common in the wild. It doesn't necessarily mean that this snake isn't axanthic. You could certainly get 'false axanthics' which just happened to produce so little xanthophore and erythrins that they looked axanthic, even though they weren't carrying a Mendelian allele which prevented the animal from having the ability to produce them. Maybe the ones in the wild are false axanthics, maybe true axanthics are common in the wild, or maybe you're right and true axanthics are extremely rare, this one just being a false axanthic, but if all you've done is see snakes in the wild, how do you know?

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I think any assumption based purely on visuals of a young specimen would be dispelled or otherwise when they were fully mature adults. From what I understand about Robs experience is that all specimens he has raised looking similar, always ended up looking like normal carpets as adults eventually. This does not mean of course that every wild juvenile encountered by Rob was just a normal carpet, instead it was just more likely to be the case.

 

[TrueBlue]

sdaji. If you had seen the animal that im refering to as the only possible true axanthic coastal that ive ever seen, then im sure you would agree with me.
This animal looked nothing at all like any of the greys or other carpets that people are calling axanthic, a totally different kettle of fish. Plus as said ive bred heaps of grey coastals over the years not just seen alot of wild ones.
This leads me to belive that true axanthic coastals are indeed rare.