Originally posted by Johnbowemonie
"Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc."
just a quick question about this statement, has anyone actually heard of someone being bitten by an elapid because they picked it up and handled it like they saw at Ray's shows? Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you. Not to mention, these "Galoots" probably wouldn't know the difference between a python and a dangerous elapid anyway, and so handling any snake in public would present a risk to said people!
The world is full of stupid people who do stupid things.
By the way Simone, this is not an attack on you at all, I would just like to see if anyone can prove this "what if this happened...". Personally, I don't agree with the procedure of removing venom glands, but having not asked Ray why he does it, I don't feel I have the right to pass judgement.
There is nothing particularly fair or ethical in bagging someone - if you must comment, do so on the procedure, not the person.
Regards,
Trent
Originally posted by Johnbowemonie
"Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc."
just a quick question about this statement, has anyone actually heard of someone being bitten by an elapid because they picked it up and handled it like they saw at Ray's shows? Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you. Not to mention, these "Galoots" probably wouldn't know the difference between a python and a dangerous elapid anyway, and so handling any snake in public would present a risk to said people!
The world is full of stupid people who do stupid things.
By the way Simone, this is not an attack on you at all, I would just like to see if anyone can prove this "what if this happened...". Personally, I don't agree with the procedure of removing venom glands, but having not asked Ray why he does it, I don't feel I have the right to pass judgement.
There is nothing particularly fair or ethical in bagging someone - if you must comment, do so on the procedure, not the person.
Regards,
Trent
Huh?
so the tigers/copperheads and eyelash vipers etc have had their venom glands removed? they DO have vens
i was there recently and one of the reptile keepers milked a tiger, showed me the venom too, it was real.
also, i thought venemoid was the term for whole, un-mutilated vens.....?
Last time i gave my opinion on this subject :evil: i gave myself a 2 month ban from APS, im not getting into it again.
Cant handle the guy!!!
Donk
I've avoided commenting until now, but having read 5 pages without anyone seeming to notice two glaring similarities means I had to finally offer my opinion!
Ray Hoser has voids. ARP has voids. Correction, ARP HAD voids. Everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that Hoser hasn't performed the proceedure for years, yet all seemed to take note of the fact that neither has ARP. The bottom line is both had them, both created them, & neither has created any more for some period of time. So why is Hoser continually castigated for still having them? Would everyone feel better if all the said animals were promptly put down? Would it change anything? Ray would still be remembered & vilified as the "man who voided hots". He AND at least one other person, who seems to be immune from comment because he's a vet. I'm not convinced of Hoser's claims that the herps dont feel it. I'm far from convinced that a kitchen table is an appropriate place for surgery. But I'm also far from convinced that it has no long-term effect on the animal in any way, & therefore the fact that it was done in a different manner becomes a secondary consideration. Is the whole anti-Hoser movement perhaps a snowball effect of his ruffling feathers by exposing smuggling & big buisness practices? Ray does have some "unusual" ideosyncrasies, and I've personally found it hard to supress the odd chuckle on a number of occasions when I've talked to him, but to publically bag a bloke for a few strange personality traits is a bit out of order. Lets keep the whole thing in perspective: Like him, hate him, or be ambivilent, it doesn't matter. Just keep in mind that Hoser isn't the only person to have voids. Nor is he the only person to have ever cut an animal up to create them. Instead, ask the question "Who's doing it now?"
IMO I dont think that anyone in the private sector should be allowed to own hots, well in Victoria anyway, I have seen them housed in click clacks handled irresponsibly, the list goes on, but I digress Voiding or not well the practice still goes on as does tail docking earclipping and circumcision the later being one of the most barbaric procedures I have ever seen done with no good reason other than "Dads" done.
Why do we do these things? BECAUSE WE CAN the greatest failing of the human race, for those that put forth the argument that they have a right to live as Elapids it could also be said they have a right to live free not in captivity.
and circumcision the later being one of the most barbaric procedures I have ever seen done with no good reason other than "Dads" done.
And why only Victoria. Are we in some way inferior to the rest of the country??
IMO I dont think that anyone in the private sector should be allowed to own hots, well in Victoria anyway, I have seen them housed in click clacks handled irresponsibly, the list goes on,
And why only Victoria. Are we in some way inferior to the rest of the country??
Well................
IsK
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