Morelia spilota Complex/ Intergrades

[NCHERPS]

The meaning of a word is not constant. It means different things in different fields.
Sophistcated metals are alloys, sophistaicated ladies were of mixed perantage. Sophisticated nowadays means something else completely.
A theory in evolution is a law where a theory in other fields isnt.
An intergrade in NSW NPWS system is a locality M. spilota ssp but in other fields is something else.
Thats the thing about language. It also isnt constant. The only thing constant is that it changes constantly.
Next week we will be discussing semiotics.
this > 0 < is a tree.

Good points here Peter, I also agree, alot of these Dictionary's were written decades ago, and many don't assess the changes in meaning as time goes on.
Here in Australia people have a bias in a way, as they have always associated an 'Intergrade' with just the naturally occuring one found around Port Mac.
Many europeans and Americans have always considered subspecies crosses to be Intergrades and not hybrids.

A zoological example is the Bornean/Sumatran sub-specific intergrade orangutan, this has never been questioned as anything other than a Intergrade in zoological circles.

 

[hugsta]

I've argued this point several times before in different threads, so I'm not going to discuss it again. I will, however put up my view (and this is the way we've been using it in the zoo world for years):

Hybrid: offspring of two different species
Intergrade: offspring of two different subspecies (whether occurring naturally or under controlled conditions).




Hix

Thankyou Hix..... Couldn't agree more.

 

[africancichlidau]

Bornean/Sumatran sub-specific intergrade orangutan, this has never been questioned as anything other than a Intergrade in zoological circles.

I think I married one of them once

 

[peterjohnson64]

Would someone please run through the current species of the OLD morelia spilota. I only have Cogger Volume 1 for my references and it doesn't contain things like morelia bredli, morelia spilota mcdowelli, morelia spilota cheynii.

In fact, all it has is spilota (Diamond), Imbricata (WA) and Variegata which I guess includes Bredlis?

 

[krusty]

thisa is one very interesting post .........love it......

 

[zen]

I agree Krusty, this is most interesting & informative.
Thanks everyone for your contributions to the thread.

Thanks especially to Bigguy for an excellent post.
A very comprehensive and well informed wrap there. Terrific stuff!

Peter, I'll get back to you about the current recognised subspecies tonight, unless someone beats me to it. :wink:

I'll put some pics up later too.

 

[Sdaji]

:lol:

 

[zen]

Strapping at the bit eh!, Sdaji ?

I'd better hurry then :lol:

I'll start by saying there's 6 currently recognised subspecies of Morelia spilota, as far as I know.
But I may be out of date already, as these things change like the wind. :lol:

 

[peterjohnson64]

Hey Zen, please don't forget the other species, like Bredli, that seem to have once been morelia spilota variegata

 

[peterescue]

M. imbricata
M. bredli
M. spilota spilota
M. spilota mcdowelli
M. spilota cheyii
M. spilota varigata
M. spilota metcalfei
M. spilota mcdowelli spilota
M. spilota spilota mcdowlli spilota
M. spilora mcdowelli spilota spilota mcdowlli spilota
M.spoleto festivale italiano

 

[zen]

6 recognised sub-species of Morelia spilota

Good one Pete :lol: You beat me to it.
You forgot Morelia spilota peterescue ridiculosus :wink:


Here's the serious breakdown Peter:-

The Centralian Python - Morelia bredli is a valid seperate species now.
Best not to call it a Carpet Python anymore IMO, to avoid confusion.


Morelia spilota is divided into 6 sub-species:-

1. Diamond Python - Morelia spilota spilota

2. South-Western Carpet Python - Morelia spilota imbricata

3. Coastal Carpet Python - Morelia spilota mcdowelli

4. Jungle Carpet Python - Morelia spilota cheynei

5. Inland Carpet Python - Morelia spilota metcalfei

6. North-Western Carpet Python - Morelia spilota variegata

 

[bigguy]

Zen, there is also the PNG/Irian Carpet which is now Morelia spilota harrisoni(I think)

PNG/Irian, Top End, Jungle, Coastal, Inland and Diamond according to DNA belong to the same species.

South Western and Bredli have totally different DNA due to their isolation from the Eastern forms.

 

[Dicco]

I also believe that Chondropython(spelling?) is about to be ressurected for The Green Python and it's close relative the Rough Scale Python after the DNA testing.

 

[zen]

Thanks Bigguy. I forgot about Morelia spilota harrisonii from Papua New Guinea & Irian Jaya. That's valid.

You also reckon that:-

South Western and Bredli have totally different DNA due to their isolation from the Eastern forms.

So has imbricata been given seperate species status?
Do you know who established this?

 

[GetCoiled]

Taylor, Rawlings, Donnellan and Goodman (2003): Population structure of the highly polytypic Australian carpet pythons (Reptilia: Morelia spilota)
Cheers
Stefano

 

[peterjohnson64]

So, North Western equals Darwin and Inland equals Murray Darling then I assume. And Bredli was previously Variegata or was it actually a recent discovery like the Rough Scale Python. And if it was merely a re-classification was the rough scale the same or was it a new discovery.

And as it is now illegal to cross-breed hybrids what happens to people that bred Bredli with Variegata when they were both Variegata????

And who is going to do the research on the Port Mac's or Proserpines to add another 2 sub-species. Perhaps Morelia Spilota Brownii?? Or should that be Brown Eyei?

 

[Dicco]

Pete, all of the carpets except for imbricata and bredli which full species now, will soon be the same species, no sub-speices, just local forms, there has been DNA testing, also, the Green Python and Rough Scale will be taken out of Morelia I believe and the old Chondropython genus will be ressurected for them. So all these types of Carpets including Brisbane, Port Mac, Prosperine, Atherton, Sydney ect are just varying reigonal forms, the whole species is just highly varied.

 

[NCHERPS]

Zen, there is also the PNG/Irian Carpet which is now Morelia spilota harrisoni(I think)

PNG/Irian, Top End, Jungle, Coastal, Inland and Diamond according to DNA belong to the same species.

South Western and Bredli have totally different DNA due to their isolation from the Eastern forms.

The Irian jaya or West papuan carpet has been considered as M.s.variegata for a long time, but I think Hoser might of re-named it as Harrisoni in 2000, I choose to keep with Variegata, although there are clear phenotype differences, so they should I am sure probably be re-classified.


Neil

 

[peterjohnson64]

Does that mjean there will no longer be hybrids? And therefore will my hybrid now be a purebreed but simply between two different colour morphs??

My how things change. But for the better in this case. Now I might understand M. spilota.

It seems that accounting is mure pure than zoology.

 

[Dicco]

Well, it's not a hybrid of a species or sub species anymore, but it is a hybrid of two forms of Carpet Python. I still think we should keep the recognised forms pure even though they will soon no longer be seperate sub-species as they are obviously very different to one another. I wonder however, if people will accept these changes?