Morelia spilota Complex/ Intergrades

[webby]

we like to think.... and this is the way we have always looked at it....

hybrid.... two different subspecies breed in captivity
intergrade... two different subspecies breeding in the wild to creat another subspecies altogether over generations...

i belive there are many intergrades all over the country where boundries overlapp but the most common/well known are the intergrades of northern NSW/southern QLD (diamond/brisbane carpets)

i think they are great, as a lover of diamonds, it is hard to keep them up in the hotter central QLD, so something similar and still very nice (intergrades) are a little more hardy and easier to keep ...

 

[bigguy]

Webby, read my previous posts. Do you think these seperate sub species just appeared at different locallities at the same time over Eastern Australia, and then started breeding with each other where their boundries met to form intergrades. Come on now!

DNA has shown they are the same species which migrated around Eastern Australia. The intergades between the boundries are the missing links as one form altered its colour to suit a new enviroment and form a new sub species.

 

[zen]

So if it's to be Morelia spilota what happens to the sub-specific latin names like cheynei and mcdowelli :?:

Would they become redundant. :?

If this were to become accepted, as seems probable, then reference books would read something like this I suppose:-

Carpet Pythons - Morelia spilota complex contains the following geographic forms -
1. Diamond
2. Top End (including PNG & Irian Jayan colour variants)
3. Eastern/Coastal
4. Jungle
5. Murray/Darling or Inland

 

[zen]

Bigguy wrote:-

...there is still a variation of the DNA between each reconised colour form. This is what a sub species is, a variation of a true species.

If this is the case, where do we draw the line? :?
Seems to me that these lines are arbitrarily & somewhat artifically drawn.

They are essentially human constructs!

In nature, there exists an infinite and continuous variation throughout the Morelia spilota complex, as is the case with many other species.

Humans are just trying to create some order in the apparent chaos of nature in order to better understand a species.
To do this we need to be able to identify a species in order to collate data on that particular species. We look for patterns to establish rules and facts about the world around us.
It's human nature!

 

[bigguy]

Zen, the same can be said with any sub species of any animal in the world. Where do you draw the line. Should every sub species in the world be scrapped if DNA shows they are indeed the same species, even though they are entirely different to each other.

As for your other comments, the Eastern Carpets were always considered to be the same form, thats why they were Morelia spilota ?. They were simply broken into sub species about 10 or so years ago. DNA has confirmed that this was the case afterall. The only form that needs changing is the South Western Carpets that was for years mistakenly added with the Morelia spilota complex. The rest just keep their origional latin names.

 

[Sdaji]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[olivehydra]

How does one use DNA to differentiate sub species?

 

[bigguy]

Olivehyra, each of the sub species, and the intergrades have slight variations in their DNA to each other.

It is the same with Green Pythons. The Northern Irian form appears as a different species to the southern GTP's. However, the southern forms including the Aussie one, are all the same species,but DNA has shown there are at least 4 different sub species due to small variations

 

[olivehydra]

Olivehyra, each of the sub species, and the intergrades have slight variations in their DNA to each other.

It is the same with Green Pythons. The Northern Irian form appears as a different species to the southern GTP's. However, the southern forms including the Aussie one, are all the same species,but DNA has shown there are at least 4 different sub species due to small variations

I suppose that would make it very difficult and expensive for aussie zoos to comply with ZooTAG suggestions of "Aussie only" breeding programs?

 

[zen]

Bigguy wrote:-

the old scientific names for each group would still be valid.

So you reckon that the sub-species will be retained under the umbrella of Morelia spilota.
If that's the case then this new DNA research will leave Morelia spilota more or less as it is now, with the exception of imbricata being seperated & raised to species status. i.e Morelia imbricata
That makes more sense to me.
I can understand imbricata and bredli being distinct due to the geographic isolation.

Bigguy wrote:-

...each of the sub species, and the intergrades have slight variations in their DNA to each other.

This is interesting! So Intergrades are genetically distinct, however slight that may be.


Sdaji, what are you laughing at ? :?
Confucious say "confusion is growth" :wink: :lol: