The big debate.

[junglepython2]

Hey guys...

Excuse me again for my ignorance....
As it was said before, the main risk is the shortage of pure breeds, which would make native animal the dearest ones available on the market... (it is the case in some other countries)
My next question is:
Can you buy an hybrid without knowing it is one? I mean, is there any physical evidence that the snake is an hybrid?
Why would someone sell an hybrid as pure anyway? It cannot only be a question of money, but I can't imagine it is in the sole goal of destroying the pure native fauna...
I can understand the "I want to have it first" reason why people would create hybrids, but can they just sell them as pure just because the creation failed and the snake isn't as beautiful or unique as expected?
I agree that an hybrid should be sold as what it is, not pure, basically because the buyer might want to breed pure hatchies, plus it is only fair to know what you're buying...
I don't know if I made myself clear, excuse my poor english... but this whole hybrid thingy starts to confuse me and draws a dark picture over the breeding of snakes... After all, can we trust anybody, even the most famous and respected breeders...?

Cheers,
Yann.

A lot of hybrids look identical to pure snakes especially if a hybrid has been crossed back to a pure snake then the offspring will be 3/4 of one snake and 1/4 the other with further crosses it becomes harder and harder to tell and often impossible.
A lot get sold as pure because they are generally worth more, unless a hybrid throws out something unusual, they are pretty cheap and most people won't touch them other then for a kids pet, which a pure snake is just as good for. A lot of people would also buy a snake not knowing what it is and then later on become labelled as a pure snake when it's not.

 

[swingonthespiral]

Maybe some people need to get off their **** and go herping in the Australian Bush!

Been there done that, still doing it, even today when its freezing and raining (damn keelbacks) lol and my opinion is still the same....

Hmmm if i had said something like that I wouldve been talkin myself up apparently

Hey guys...

Excuse me again for my ignorance....
As it was said before, the main risk is the shortage of pure breeds, which would make native animal the dearest ones available on the market... (it is the case in some other countries)

Whats wrong with pure snakes fetching the best prices???? just like the dog/cat hobby..... and they already do.... we're all seeing hybrids pop up now and they are considerably cheaper than pures.... and rightfully so.

 

[swingonthespiral]

ps swing, well said babe, lol, welcome to the dark side...........................

Sweetie u have seen me in person..... i've always been on the dark side.... do i own any other colour clothing than black??? LOL.....

Although on the other hand.... i am not closed minded about anything.... therefore i have seen the light lol

 

[Australis]

yes, heaps better then spending their days sending pms running other members down, or talking about them in chat, haha, what colour are your eyes, GREEN.....................

Im not really following why you have quoted my post and replied with such random comments, are they ment to be directed at me?

I dont send Pm's running people down, infact i dont like PM's period.

And i sure as hell don't have "GREEN" eyes over people breeding mongrel animals.

 

[m.punja]

No. This site is not run democratically

Lucky for Donk. At the moment the dislike ppl have for in (no doubt in a comical way) is only second off to dislike for hybrids. lol.

 

[beeman]

Unintentional?
Any keeper who unitentionally crosses something is a complete and utter moron or is a liar,take your pick.

agrees with ramsayi!!!!!!!!!

 

[beeman]

went into a pet/reptile shop in melbourne yesterday and
was totally discusted, all they had for sale was about
15plus crossbred jungles and diamond juvies,
Not the first time time going to this shop and all they seem to sell
is crossbred pythons and for the same sort of money that you would expect
to pay for true to type breeds

 

[Southside Morelia]

went into a pet/reptile shop in melbourne yesterday and
was totally discusted, all they had for sale was about
15plus crossbred jungles and diamond juvies,
Not the first time time going to this shop and all they seem to sell
is crossbred pythons and for the same sort of money that you would expect
to pay for true to type breeds

I'd be interested how you came to the conclusion that the jungle "JUVIES" were crosses, it would be very difficult to tell at that age, seeing there are so many variations to the specie!
Crossed with what?
And the diamonds, what were they crossed with, in your opinion, I would like to hear your learned appraisal on that comment.
Not to say it doesn't happen, more interested in what you think they are crossed with, could be interesting...
Pics or it didn't happen !!!

 

[beeman]

I'd be interested how you came to the conclusion that the jungle "JUVIES" were crosses, it would be very difficult to tell at that age, seeing there are so many variations to the specie!
Crossed with what?
And the diamonds, what were they crossed with, in your opinion, I would like to hear your learned appraisal on that comment.
Not to say it doesn't happen, more interested in what you think they are crossed with, could be interesting...
Pics or it didn't happen !!!

they were crossed with coastals, wasnt hard to find out
as they quite happly tell you what they are.....

 

[junglepython2]

they were crossed with coastals, wasnt hard to find out
as they quite happly tell you what they are.....

Were they advertised as crosses or just as jungles and diamonds?

 

[beeman]

they were advertised as crosses, which is a positive thing as not trying to hide the fact,
but every time i have been in that shop all they seem to have is crossbreds

 

[Australis]

they were advertised as crosses, which is a positive thing as not trying to hide the fact,
but every time i have been in that shop all they seem to have is crossbreds

Maybe they get them really dirty cheap, making them profitable.

 

[mysnakesau]

colour morphs etc within a species are cool and diversify the available species nicely

I dont really agree with hybrids (I wouldnt get one) but it depends on how close the species are to how wrong it is imo.
eg. that woma x carpet is so wrong but I can understand a coastal x diamond.

that said some hybrids do look pretty eg GTPxcarpet -jmo
so really its all down to personal preference I guess

I don't believe in hybrids. I even think the diamond x coastal is still just as bad. There are so many intergrades and crosses of these too, it is getting harder to find a good pure diamond, and you'll see their prices go up the harder they become to find. JMO.

 

[da_donkey]

Well at this stage it looks like im not gonna get booted (touch wood) :lol::lol:

Great comments guys

But i think its time we had some of the older / experienced people step up and post there opinions, because i can say that i have been a little supprised with the majority of posts so far.

donk

 

[mysnakesau]

Who wants to clarify what is what for the youngens?
As in a hybrid is...................and a morph is...........differences being.............?

I haven't read all the posts so please excuse me if someone else has already answered.

A hybrid is a deliberate cross breeding between 2 different species.

a morph is a natural occuring change within a species eg. an albino is a morph.

 

[slim6y]

Do dog forums have this EXACT same debate?

 

[grimbeny]

I doubt any cross breed dog is worth much money so probably not...

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Well Donk...

My feelings about hybrids are very well known. I have a museum background where I worked with scientists a lot of the time (for 30-odd years) and I guess that makes me fairly conservative where this issue is concerned.

To hybridise our native animals, which we are licensed by the Crown to hold, and over which we should always exert the very best of stewardship, is just pure vandalism. Simply because some lightweight wants a "pretty" animal in their collection is not reason enough to compromise the future of species we hold in captivity. Although animals are taken from the wild and moved into the systen all the time, the captive pool of animals is a fairly closed resource. Those who give little thought to the debate (and there have been a LOT of them here) say it's OK as long as they are sold with the requisite history. That's just pure crap - how many animals retain their history with them as they move through the system?

Those who support hybridisation reflect a very poor understanding of their responsibilty with regard to species management and conservation, especially in this country, which has the biggest number of python species/subspecies in the world, many of which are very closely related indeed. Unfortunately this is used as an excuse by many to mix and match whatever they like to get something bright, shiny and unique. Sadly, for even one unusual and attractive hybrid, there may be dozens of plain or indifferent looking animals which are sold off at base prices to pet shops and unsuspecting private buyers. Once the genetics are mixed, they can't be unmixed...

I am a fairly high profile user of another site, and my views are very well known there. I could put a dozen reasons why hybridising is unethical into this debate, and not one of those rreasons can be refuted logically. It always comes back to "I like them and so I will breed them" or (and this is very strange...) "I would never have one myself buy I support the right of others to do as they wish with their animals..." Basically "I can do what I like regardless of the consequences."

Those who support hybridising usually say there are no negative consequences. This too is crap. Reptile breeding in numbers is a relatively new phenomenon worldwide (really the last 20-30 years has seen huge changes in our understanding of how to do this) so it really is just the beginning of a practice the world has never seen before. With the increasing availability of reptiles as pets, many of these are falling into the hands of people who should NEVER be trusted with this valuable resource. We don't even have a basic understanding of the species/subspecies we have now.

I guess it's a symptom of impatience - there are extraordinary examples of line-bred pure species/subspecies out there, but they may take 10 or 15 years of careful breeding to develop consistent results, and these progeny are usually top shelf in terms of price. I see this as a legitimate use of the resource we all rely on. But how many new keepers out there want something spectacular, and see a way of getting it by putting 2 differing (and cheaper)species/subspecies together to see if they can crack the big time in their first 12 months?

I challenge anyone who intends to hybridise their animals to discuss their plans with their state fauna authorities, and see how they fare. Their credibility as responsible keepers would be zilch.

Jamie.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Gawd - that's what I mean about the level of debate on this one...

For about the 10th time on this thread alone - DOGS ARE A SINGLE SPECIES, THEY ARE NOT HYBRIDS - THE DIFFERENT BREEDS, FROM CHIHUAHUAS TO WOLFHOUNDS AND BEYOND, ARE ALL THE SAME SPECIES. A MIX BETWEEN THE TWO IS NOT A HYBRID!!!!!!!

Jamie

 

[shnimpon]

i noce bread a bulldog and a shizu

i called it a bull*****