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Well what do you think?

  • Morphs are ok, but hybrids are just wrong.

    Votes: 51 30.7%
  • Hybrids are fine, as long as there healthy.

    Votes: 27 16.3%
  • Who cares, as long as they look awsome.

    Votes: 25 15.1%
  • Pure is the ONLY way to advance our hobby.

    Votes: 28 16.9%
  • Go away Donkey you idiot (plz someone ban him for good).

    Votes: 35 21.1%

  • Total voters
    166
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Ahhhh ok
But then what about dingo and domestic dog? is it cause domestic vs wild?

From my recent reading( just then lol) all domestic dogs evolved from the gray wolf...then were selectively bred for millenia for various behaviors, sensory capabilities, and physical attributes.

So i think i just answered my own question lol

It has nothing to do with being domestic or not, it's about how closely related they are, which isn't always related to physical appearance, this is why domestic dogs are the same sub-species despite looking so different.
I'm not 100% sure on the dingo but I think they are grouped in with the domestic dog under familaris, and can be regarded as just another breed that has evolved isolated from the main population until very recently.
 
Canis lupus lupus - Grey Wolf
Canis lupus dingo - Dingo
Canis lupus familiaris - domestic dog (all varieties of domestic breeds).

Until recently (and extensive molecular investigation) dogs were Canis familiaris familiaris and Dingos were C.f. dingo.

Not sure where Canis familiaris hallstromi (New Guinea Singing Dog) falls into all that, but is now probably Canis lupus hallstromi

:p

Hix
 
Why is there more talk about dogs than reptiles in this thread.

THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES!!!!

Dogs = 1 species (genetically nearly identical)
Humans = 1 species (genetically nearly identical)
Snakes = hundreds of species (genetically very different)
 
I've got know idea - but why would you want to?

Oh yeah, I forgot - for the money. :rolleyes:

:p

Hix

hehe.. I don't want to - but I will take the money anyways!

I found a rottie/chihuahua on the net - wasn't as malformed as i figured. Almost cute.

And that takes back to the Donk question - if it looks good who cares....?

Personally, I wasn't aware of the debate going on until i joined this site. And to me it's a kind of fanaticism.

each to their own I say!
 
As far as herps go i think it would be completely ignorent to say we have studied them enough and know enough about their biology to be confident that certain traits will not be lost for ever by crossing selective breeding ect,
Also the dangers of certain unnatural mophs making their way back into the wild and negatively effecting the wild populations as i am sure has happened.. end of rant..
 
Why is there more talk about dogs than reptiles in this thread.

THERE ARE NO SIMILARITIES!!!!

Dogs = 1 species (genetically nearly identical)
Humans = 1 species (genetically nearly identical)
Snakes = hundreds of species (genetically very different)

WRONG.
 
It is true that dogs are all one species (except, like someone mentioned, dingos and wolves, etc), while there are hundreds of species of snake.

Even so, that doesn't make it entirely wrong to cross them, even if I do tend to think cross-breeding snakes should remain illegal in Australia. They are not 'forced' as such to mate. Also, the fact that they can produce offspring has to say something whereas a cat and a dog cannot produce offspring together.
 
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It is true that dogs are all one species (except, like someone mentioned, dingos and wolves, etc), while there are hundreds of species of snake.

Even so, that doesn't make it entirely wrong to cross them, even if I do tend to think cross-breeding snakes should remain illegal in Australia. They are not 'forced' as such to mate. Also, the fact that they can produce offspring has to say something whereas a cat and a dog cannot produce offspring together.

So just because they can hybridise in artificial conditions it's ok? There is some evidence that chimps and humans could hybridise if that is correct does that make that ok also?
 
How many gene locus does it take for it to be considered a different species?
(Talking snakes here)

No idea that one is way outta my league:lol: but it wouldn't be a set number, it would also come down to other factors.
 
So just because they can hybridise in artificial conditions it's ok? There is some evidence that chimps and humans could hybridise if that is correct does that make that ok also?

Looking at some of the girls i used to go to school with i reckon it has allready happened! :lol:

donk
 
No idea that one is way outta my league:lol: but it wouldn't be a set number, it would also come down to other factors.

lol
Well if it was not many that kept one species different from another.....

I would actually like to find out how many gene locus it takes to become a different species.

Also how many between -
humans and apes
2 different snake species
fox and dog
 
Humans are most likely all one species (I think that's correct)

With brothers like mine, sometimes you wonder.... Nice call Donk ;) We must have gone to the same school :p
 
A couple of points.
A few people have said that finding 'pure' snakes overseas is getting difficult. I do not beleive this to be true, I actually beleive it to be the opposite. With regards to the USA go back a few years and carpets were carpets and childrens were childrens, (also in Australia as well) they were all breed together rarely with thought for locality, bred within the super spp rather than the two together. Locality breeding is a very recent trend. So more and more now we find people breeding locality specific animals. I myself grouped all my "childrens" according to their locality many years ago.
But if we think about what actually consists of a spp we run into trouble with locality breeding. What will happen is we will get a line bred specimen which will not be representative of the actual spp. We will get a domesticated animal instead. To breed as a spp we would need to use the zoo small population tables to decide which specimen to mate with which. I do not know many people doing this.
In other words the whole issue is extremely complicated because there is no consences as to what actually distinguishes a spp. So to bring the debate into herpetoculture and 'nit pick' is irresponsible in my mind.
Rather it would be better within the bounds of general understanding of a spp to group breed without regard to the physical i.e. asthetic characteristic of the spp we wish to breed.
For those vermently against hybrids etc... I feel they should attack with a positive rather than a negative. On other threads people have personally attacked others for breeding hybrids, I also note their apparent lack of experience from viewing their prior posts as well. I think it better to promote the virtues of 'pure' spp (as best as a spp is known). It serves no purpose to be negative on the issue.
I do not think it is very relavent to discuss conservation value of most spp as in reality the vast majority of wildlife in captivity has zero conservation value. This is just pandering to the AR extremists with no benefit to the hobby.
To those that say people breed hybrids for money, they obviously have no real understanding of the industry. If anybody knows personally somebody turning a REAL profit from producing hybrid herps please let us know. Because somebody sells an animal, does not mean it is profitable enough to warrent concentration, remember it costs money to bring the offspring to sale.
If you want to look at comparisons look at the bird industry there are many similarities. Yes people push their own points there as well.
Bottom line: as a hybrid and or morph becomes valuable/desirable people will breed them, as they lose their profitability/desirability people will breed less of them.
Solution ??? Go with your own flow, breed yourself what you beleive is desirable to you and don't worry so much about others :)
 
....For those vermently against hybrids etc... I feel they should attack with a positive rather than a negative. On other threads people have personally attacked others for breeding hybrids, I also note their apparent lack of experience from viewing their prior posts as well. I think it better to promote the virtues of 'pure' spp (as best as a spp is known). It serves no purpose to be negative on the issue.

I disapprove of hybrids because I beleive it could eventually devestate our pure populations. Particularly ppl breeding for money, hybrids will be given a name, handed across to unknowing ppl and sold of accordingly. for example I bought a python believing I was buying a purebred diamond. I have since had confident opinions who say she is a diamond/carpet intergrade which is a typical species found in my local area. Had I not found the friends I have now, I could have bred with her and sold on babies as pure diamonds - unknowingly selling off something that wasn't pure which would then go into hands of others to be bred with which eventually could wipe out our real diamond pythons. Then you get ppl you do know but rip off the unknowing ppl who know no better. I am not all that good with my words so I hope you can make sense with what I am saying. Hybrids probably wouldn't be a problem if they were sold as hybrids and not given new names to make new herpers believe they have bought something something spectalcular which may not throw that same quality in the generation.
 
So just because they can hybridise in artificial conditions it's ok? There is some evidence that chimps and humans could hybridise if that is correct does that make that ok also?

You house a cat and a dog together and see if they mate, because they won't.

And even though snakes 'are not of the same species' it is not the same as breeding a human and chimp, we all know that. As far as I am concered different species of snake are no different than two people of different colours having children. Yes, their genes are different and they have different scientific names, but what does this change? They are still one animal, have all the same organs and are still one shape. Yes, a Diamond is a different colour than a Jungle but how is that different to Africans having dark skin while the English have white?

Though this isn't my point. The snakes, while being encouraged, are not being forced to mate. Does it really matter? It is not harming either of the snakes and the only real reason people don't like hybrids is either because they don't like how they look or they don't want it to become difficult to find pures. I understand the latter, preferring pures myself, but does it really matter to the snakes? I don't think they care is their offspring isn't 'pure'.
 
just butting in for a tick, this is the biggest number of posts i have seen on a thread anywhere, ever. coolness.
carry on:)
cheers
 
we have bred differnet dogs to make ones we fancy and that goes the same for cats so wats wrong with doing it with pythons
 
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