vegetarians and vegans

[saximus]

He means because plants take in carbon dioxide Jazz

 

[Jazzz]

Yeah but crops aren't the solution to that... They take in co2 and then they are harvested and then more are planted which also take in co2. It's a cycle...

 

[mattmc]

If you believe in evolution etc. then it would make sense that we evolved to consume small amounts of meat that we could catch and kill. This would have meant that it wouldn't have been eaten every day or in the volume that we do now. I'm only eating it once or twice a week now because of the cost and it does seem to feel pretty

if you maintain this logic, it is also logical to assume that us as white european men (that is if you are white european) should not eat fruit during the winter months, should eat barely any fruit at all, as none of it is really native to europe.

now i dont believe in biblical fantasies either, i believe in evolution. europeans are not designed/never did grow up on a diet filled with fruits commonly

ps. i am a carnivore

 

[moosenoose]

I stop the animals from eating YOUR plants! You should thank me

 

[kawasakirider]

i stop the animals from eating your plants! You should thank me :d

hahaha

 

[saximus]

if you maintain this logic, it is also logical to assume that us as white european men (that is if you are white european) should not eat fruit during the winter months, should eat barely any fruit at all, as none of it is really native to europe.

now i dont believe in biblical fantasies either, i believe in evolution. europeans are not designed/never did grow up on a diet filled with fruits commonly

ps. i am a carnivore

Finally an excuse for me not to eat fruit!
I think you have to consider the time scales for that though. As homo sapiens I'd assume we would have evolved to eat something resembling fruits (obviously not the selectively bred ones we see today). Europeans aren't a different species to Africans so I think the time line is too short to say Europeans are significantly different in that area. I dunno though I could just be talking out of my butt. Also, I guess there are obvious health benefits to eating fruit whether we evolved to eat them or not whereas there are no proven health benefits (that I know of) for not eating meat in small proportions at least.

 

[Naga_Kanya]

I'm vegetarian (nearly 17 years), with no animal rennet in cheese and only my mum's awesome free-range eggs. When I eat out I try to avoid eggs and dairy but I'm not hardcore about it. I'm trying to lose dairy because of the bobby calf thing, with about 80% success (I fall off the wagon for sour cream and fetta, I suck..). I've worked and/or volunteered in sustainable farming (including rare breed animal farming for meat), animal welfare, organic agriculture, and animal rescue for many, many years. I know some really freaking cool, completely sane vegans who are awesome fun to be around (although I've met plenty of the other kind as well). I'm fit, healthy, I work on a farm, with horses, and as a tall ship sailor and rigger. I need to be fit and strong and energetic to do all that.
I love being vego; loved it from the word go (though I did have meat cravings for a bit while I adjusted to my new diet and learned to cook tasty meat-free food!), and though I say so myself, I'm a pretty good cook (you kinda have to be) - enough so that my meat-loving friends look forward to meals I make them. I try not to talk about it unless someone asks directly because I hate preachy vegos, they really give me the ****s, but it still stings when people make jokes about it because as xDragonx says, it's something I cared about enough to change my whole life for; I respect others' choices, but this isn't a joke to me. .

 

[GeneticProject]

Does this mean u only feed you snakes Bok Choy.?

Sorry but I just can't fathom the fact that anyone on here can call themselves a full vegan, if they are In possession of snakes and reptiles that consume meat. To me this contradicts the beliefs of a true vegan. Snakes need nutrition from meat. And by feeding meat forms you are therefore supporting a carnivore Which you so passionately protest against.? Just my personal opinion.

Cheers Barf

 

[Jazzz]

Does this mean u only feed you snakes Bok Choy.?

Sorry but I just can't fathom the fact that anyone on here can call themselves a full vegan, if they are In possession of snakes and reptiles that consume meat. To me this contradicts the beliefs of a true vegan. Snakes need nutrition from meat. And by feeding meat forms you are therefore supporting a carnivore Which you so passionately protest against.? Just my personal opinion.

Cheers Barf

i rationalize it in the way that the mice are kept in good conditions and are killed in a way i deem humane and pain free. I had a look at where the mice are kept and how they are killed before i bought them off the breeder =]

but thats just me. Not sure if other people rationalize it differently?

they are also not causing global warming and devastating environmental degradation

 

[Naga_Kanya]

Does this mean u only feed you snakes Bok Choy.?

Sorry but I just can't fathom the fact that anyone on here can call themselves a full vegan, if they are In possession of snakes and reptiles that consume meat. To me this contradicts the beliefs of a true vegan. Snakes need nutrition from meat. And by feeding meat forms you are therefore supporting a carnivore Which you so passionately protest against.? Just my personal opinion.

Cheers Barf

I'm not a vegan (I know a bunch of them though) and if I can step in, I think there's a huge difference between contributing to the meat industry for humans, which is environmentally and ethically problematic, and feeding an animal which consumes meat which is produced in a more ethical fashion. I've known some haaaardcore vegans who won't allow any dead animal in their house whatsoever, and complain if others eat meat near them - but others I know make the choice for themselves only, not for their animals. That's certainly where I'm at as a vego-with-vegan-leanings. It's my choice not to contribute to an industry I cannot condone, but not my animals' choice, so my snakes eat rats, and my cats eat free range organic chicken from a small local farm. Part of my love of animals involves taking the very best care of the ones I have. It's hypocritical in some ways, I suppose, but it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Renenet]

I am an omnivore. I certainly understand the reasons people become vegetarian/vegan - I once tried to become vegetarian myself. Unfortunately, I just ended up making myself sick. My iron levels, which are naturally low to begin with, plummeted.

Now, instead of cutting meat out entirely, I eat much smaller servings. For red meat I use kangaroo, on the theory that it's better for our local Aussie environment. I'm still working on finding an ethical option for white meats that I can afford.

The result is I feel much healthier and more energetic. So a meat-free diet isn't for everyone. I admire anyone who can thrive on one.

 

[Naga_Kanya]

Big yay for ethically-sourced meat! An ex-vegan/long-time vego friend of mine started eating small farm, rare-breed meat just after the GFC struck, because she figured that it would actually be *more* ethical to do so, given that these small farmers with their heritage animals would be the first to feel the pinch, and perhaps be driven out of business altogether, leaving meat production solely in the hands of the larger, unethical producers. The quality is much, much higher, too.

In Melbourne, the farmers' markets are pretty good and there are a lot of them. Their white meat is fairly expensive though. I'm lucky in that my local butcher only sells free-range, sourced from small, local farms, and it's very reasonably priced. If you're interested in seafood, there's an ethical seafood guide been released online which is up-to-date and pretty comprehensive.

16 pages after a day? (give or take) wow...
ok, not trying to argue or anything, but just a few points for discussion's sake

1) going completely vegan means you'll miss some nutrients, including vitamins and protein. YES beans and stuff have some protein but structure wise it is quite different from the one you get from meat, not to mention the cocktail of nutrients that actually comes with meat is absent in veg alone

2) unless you go all out organic/sustainable, chances are the ecological damage is almost equal to that of conventional farming practices

3) theres alot on animal abuse, yes its bad, but when you keep them in decent conditions like some have pointed out (this is within aussie assuming general practices are humane, which i think it is), then how is this different than keeping a pet?

4) evolutionary-wise there is alot of evidence against going vego. Canines are one thing, another is our intestinal track as if we were designed to only eat greens (a ridiculous idea to begin with), we'd be able to digest cellulose for starters, and our appendix would be longer and actually usable
theres also some evidence that omega-3s (i.e. fish) in the diet helped increase our brain size into what it is today

now i'd like to hear your point of view (or anyone's really)

I'm sposed to be in bed since I have work tomorrow, so this will be short, but you actually don't miss out on any nutrients whatsoever as a vego. I've researched this pretty thoroughly, and especially now there are more of us (when I went vego in '94 it was really hard to find food!), there are also more nutrition options available. Chia seed, for example, is an incredibly rich, sustainable source of Omega 3 and 6, in a preferable balance to that found in meat/fish, which can contribute to inflammation. It's also great for amino acids and complete protein. Same with quinoa. Both are tasty, and easy to use in cooking.

If I was at all interested in clinging to my evolutionary past, I'd also eschew other advances, such as living in houses, vaccinations, the internet, and brushing my teeth. But seriously, as Saximus says, there's research proving both sides. I'm frankly more interested in keeping myself healthy in the here and now. I've been vego for nearly 17 years, had blood tests and full medicals every year for the first five to make sure I was doing it right. I don't go to any effort to "balance" my diet, either, I just eat what I feel like. As I said in my earlier post, my job/s are physically-strenuous, outdoor jobs, which require me to be fit, healthy, strong, and have the sort of energy that means I can do a watch in a storm from midnight-4am, have 2 hours sleep, go aloft, teach trainees how to helm, and keep this up for a couple of weeks at a stretch. A vegan friend of mine is a paramedic who sails with Sea Shepherd. Vegos have reduced incidences of heart disease, obesity, most diet-related cancers, diabetes, etc. As for environmental issues, there's a decent document here, that footnotes its research: Eating Up The World. Added to this, the UN recently listed meat production as the leading contributor worldwide to global warming. Even without the benefits of sustainable farming, the production of plant crops which are suitable to the areas they're being farmed in is way less destructive than meat.

Basically, Sam Neill's lying to you. I find this a little sad, since I had a crush on him when I was 11 and he was Captain Starlight.

 

[mayamaya]

I hate the thought of any animal being killed or hurt in any way, but I was raised in an eastern european family who are big on meat so its too natural for me now to give it up I would love to become a vegetarian, and I respect anyone who has the strength and dedication to be one! & I'll admit the world WOULD be a better place for humans, animals And the environment if everyone was a vegetarian (including the animals! haha even though thats impossible) There would be much less animal cruelty and more world peace (less need for anyone or anything to hunt or fight). Also I'm completely against animal cruelty and hate anyone who takes part in it so it pains me to feel like the hypocrite for eating the poor animals who were slaughtered to get to my dinner table So I'm thankful there is strong people out there who we call vegetarians! XD

 

[saximus]

Well so much for stepping out of this thread :/. I just can't help myself.
I don't think there is a need to go to the extreme of saying "no meat at all. Ever." I think it would be fine if we could just limit our consumption. That would limit the number of animals being farmed. It would mean every animal lives in better conditions. It would mean less stress for farmers. Less strain on the environment. Less of what the extremists call "cruelty" but the rest of us just call "efficiency". Less wasted meat (and therefore less animals killed for no reason)
This is all just a pipe dream though. Like communism, it would be great in theory but as soon as you put people in charge it goes to crap.

 

[Jazzz]

I'm sposed to be in bed since I have work tomorrow, so this will be short, but you actually don't miss out on any nutrients whatsoever as a vego. I've researched this pretty thoroughly, and especially now there are more of us (when I went vego in '94 it was really hard to find food!), there are also more nutrition options available. Chia seed, for example, is an incredibly rich, sustainable source of Omega 3 and 6, in a preferable balance to that found in meat/fish, which can contribute to inflammation. It's also great for amino acids and complete protein. Same with quinoa. Both are tasty, and easy to use in cooking.

had never even heard of this, thank you =]

 

[Naga_Kanya]

had never even heard of this, thank you =]

Maybe we need a 'vego eating tips' thread. We can share recipes that even the meat-eaters can get into (you so don't have to be vego to enjoy the odd tasty meat-free meal, and like Saximus said, and I couldn't agree more, bringing meat down to sustainable levels is great for our health, the planet, and animal welfare), and it might help people like momo93 find it easier to eat less meat - and also nutrition-y stuff. I pick up a lot of useful stuff because I have a heap of vego/vegan friends, I work in permaculture, and so I find this stuff out without having to go to too much effort.

 

[Laghairt]

I can also attest to the fact that meat is definitley not necessary to lead a healthy active life. There are plenty of famous vegan athletes including my wife who has represented Australia in two different sports and made a final at the Beijing Olympics as a vegetarian.

I've researched this pretty thoroughly, and especially now there are more of us (when I went vego in '94 it was really hard to find food!), there are also more nutrition options available. Chia seed, for example, is an incredibly rich, sustainable source of Omega 3 and 6, in a preferable balance to that found in meat/fish, which can contribute to inflammation. It's also great for amino acids and complete protein. Same with quinoa. Both are tasty, and easy to use in cooking.

If I was at all interested in clinging to my evolutionary past, I'd also eschew other advances, such as living in houses, vaccinations, the internet, and brushing my teeth. But seriously, as Saximus says, there's research proving both sides. I'm frankly more interested in keeping myself healthy in the here and now. I've been vego for nearly 17 years, had blood tests and full medicals every year for the first five to make sure I was doing it right. I don't go to any effort to "balance" my diet, either, I just eat what I feel like. As I said in my earlier post, my job/s are physically-strenuous, outdoor jobs, which require me to be fit, healthy, strong, and have the sort of energy that means I can do a watch in a storm from midnight-4am, have 2 hours sleep, go aloft, teach trainees how to helm, and keep this up for a couple of weeks at a stretch. A vegan friend of mine is a paramedic who sails with Sea Shepherd. Vegos have reduced incidences of heart disease, obesity, most diet-related cancers, diabetes, etc. As for environmental issues, there's a decent document here, that footnotes its research: Eating Up The World. Added to this, the UN recently listed meat production as the leading contributor worldwide to global warming. Even without the benefits of sustainable farming, the production of plant crops which are suitable to the areas they're being farmed in is way less destructive than meat.

Basically, Sam Neill's lying to you. I find this a little sad, since I had a crush on him when I was 11 and he was Captain Starlight.

 

[K3nny]

I'm sposed to be in bed since I have work tomorrow, so this will be short, but you actually don't miss out on any nutrients whatsoever as a vego. I've researched this pretty thoroughly, and especially now there are more of us (when I went vego in '94 it was really hard to find food!), there are also more nutrition options available. Chia seed, for example, is an incredibly rich, sustainable source of Omega 3 and 6, in a preferable balance to that found in meat/fish, which can contribute to inflammation. It's also great for amino acids and complete protein. Same with quinoa. Both are tasty, and easy to use in cooking.

If I was at all interested in clinging to my evolutionary past, I'd also eschew other advances, such as living in houses, vaccinations, the internet, and brushing my teeth. But seriously, as Saximus says, there's research proving both sides. I'm frankly more interested in keeping myself healthy in the here and now. I've been vego for nearly 17 years, had blood tests and full medicals every year for the first five to make sure I was doing it right. I don't go to any effort to "balance" my diet, either, I just eat what I feel like. As I said in my earlier post, my job/s are physically-strenuous, outdoor jobs, which require me to be fit, healthy, strong, and have the sort of energy that means I can do a watch in a storm from midnight-4am, have 2 hours sleep, go aloft, teach trainees how to helm, and keep this up for a couple of weeks at a stretch. A vegan friend of mine is a paramedic who sails with Sea Shepherd. Vegos have reduced incidences of heart disease, obesity, most diet-related cancers, diabetes, etc. As for environmental issues, there's a decent document here, that footnotes its research: Eating Up The World. Added to this, the UN recently listed meat production as the leading contributor worldwide to global warming. Even without the benefits of sustainable farming, the production of plant crops which are suitable to the areas they're being farmed in is way less destructive than meat.

Basically, Sam Neill's lying to you. I find this a little sad, since I had a crush on him when I was 11 and he was Captain Starlight.

perhaps, and perhaps not. you've gotta keep in mind not everyone has the same/similiar body systems as you, yes theres alot on this thread that may have eaten their fill into a healthy lifestyle, however generalization based from a number (i assume to be) lower than 30 is statistically unreliable, its not exactly for everyone.

Case in point: French vegans charged with child neglect after baby's death - Telegraph
granted their other daughter had no other issues, thus this is really open to speculation.

and again, meat protein and vegetable protein are not exactly the same, the amino acid compositions are quite different, if it was the tofu i eat would probably have a similiar texture to meat (although i'm a total sucker for soy based products like tofu n tempeh, but also in moderation, phytoestrogens...)

In other countries i should point out, eating meat does not mean eating a hunk of steak the way we perceive it here. A lecturer of mine went to visit a sheep herder somewhere in mediterania. For 20 people in the family, the amount of meat used in the food was no more than a cup, its not a central part of the diet, but used more of a flavoring agent/condiment. All 20 were healthy, active individuals. Really puts into perspective what we consider a "balanced diet"

having said that, it is very easy to just pop a supplement IF needed, no biggie, you get your complete nutritional requirement, everyones happy.

On sustainable and ethically produced meats, i'm all for it. Its better for the animal, and theres heaps of evidence animals that are raised well become darn tastier too.

 

[Naga_Kanya]

perhaps, and perhaps not. you've gotta keep in mind not everyone has the same/similiar body systems as you, yes theres alot on this thread that may have eaten their fill into a healthy lifestyle, however generalization based from a number (i assume to be) lower than 30 is statistically unreliable, its not exactly for everyone.

In other countries i should point out, eating meat does not mean eating a hunk of steak the way we perceive it here. A lecturer of mine went to visit a sheep herder somewhere in mediterania. For 20 people in the family, the amount of meat used in the food was no more than a cup, its not a central part of the diet, but used more of a flavoring agent/condiment. All 20 were healthy, active individuals. Really puts into perspective what we consider a "balanced diet"

having said that, it is very easy to just pop a supplement IF needed, no biggie, you get your complete nutritional requirement, everyones happy.

On sustainable and ethically produced meats, i'm all for it. Its better for the animal, and theres heaps of evidence animals that are raised well become darn tastier too.

I agree, but another contributing factor is the lack of education about eating good meat-free food. Meat's such a huge part of our culture that many simply don't know what to eat without it, and end up nutritionally starving themselves eating pasta and steamed broccoli day after day. If we ate a more varied diet we'd have the know-how to live healthier with less meat. I agree with you about overseas meat usage, too; I grew up in a few different countries around Asia, and meat isn't the centre of people's lives like it is here; as you say it's used mostly as a flavouring. If our omnivores ate small quantities of sustainably-produced, excellent quality meat, it would be better for absolutely everyone, and we'd retain the biodiversity of our rare breeds as well. I'm too sooky to eat animals, but I favour the mostly-vego omnivore model as an ideal. As it is we chug down enormous quantities of horrifically unsustainable, cruelly-produced, poor-quality meat that's killing us and the planet. I know people who eat nearly 2kg of the stuff a day, as the central focus of all three meals. Mental.

I find it weird that it's also really tied in with a culture of machismo, that 'a man needs meat'. It's all marketing, and cleverly done, but funny because it's not like these guys are hunting and killing their own meat, they're buying it pre-packaged from supermarkets, and women need the iron more than men do.

As for the different protein structures, that's not always in meat's favour. Meat may be a good protein source, but it's not perfect, and many plant foods like quinoa, acorns, etc, are complete proteins which are easily assimilated. The omegas we get from Chia are better than those in fish, for example. Amino acids are found in abundance throughout the plant kingdom. I'm very aware I've been physiologically lucky with going vego, but I attribute a lot of that to growing up in environments that didn't make me dependent on meat and taught me how to cook a heap of varied stuff without it, so I wasn't simply trying to cook meat dishes with the meat taken out. There are whole communities in various parts of Asia that have been vego for centuries, and have excellent overall health.

 

[saximus]

I have some anecdotal evidence I thought I'd share. As I said earlier I have cut down a fair bit on my meat lately and hadn't had a steak for weeks until last night. For the last week I've felt really tired and lethargic. Even getting my eight hours it was a struggle getting out of bed. However, this morning after only about five or six hours sleep I felt fantastic. Pretty much jumped out of bed. Now obviously this is only anecdotal like I said but I can't think of anything else I did/ate yesterday that would have brought on such a swift improvement