What makes a Jungle a Jungle ?

[Retic]

Thanks Scott, that was exactly the answer I was looking for. I was told I was irresponsible because I put my 'Jungles' and 'Carpets' on the same page in my book, I think I was just ahead of the times Seriously though I think everything from here up is a carpet, what they will all be lumped under is anyones guess of course.
No hurry for that paper, just when you have the time. Thanks.

I am watching with interest....as I don't believe that they can be split by way of a key....if they cannot be keyed and genetics tells us that they are the same then.....I reckon you have a Carpet Python...

Cheers,
Scott

Ps still hunting that paper down mate...its been a little hectic of late

 

[Col J]

Jason,
I am sure if the taxonomists had a go at us, we too would be split into numerous subspecies currently referred as "races". The distinguishing characters would be height and body weight (this would straightaway form two sub-species: fatsos and normos), colour of the skin, patterns wouldn't count because too many people die their hair to weird colours (no consistency) and behavioural patterns would be unreliable too.

Geez Waterrat, I'm really having trouble with this subspecies-of-human business. I used to be a normo but gradually intergrading to fatso. My hair was near black, (hypermelanistic maybe?) then changed to grey, (Albino maybe??) then started to fall out, (becoming patternless). Then I am told I am getting cranky as I get older (behavioural changes) so I really am having problems with self-identification.

Confused,

Col J.

 

[cockney red]

Geez Waterrat, I'm really having trouble with this subspecies-of-human business. I used to be a normo but gradually intergrading to fatso. My hair was near black, (hypermelanistic maybe?) then changed to grey, (Albino maybe??) then started to fall out, (becoming patternless). Then I am told I am getting cranky as I get older (behavioural changes) so I really am having problems with self-identification.

Confused,

Col J.

LMFAO Nuff said, for us bipedal carbonites

Little or no difference , genetically. They are all" CARPET CRAWLERS " to quote Peter Gabriel....:lol:

 

[pyrodarknessanny]

well any one who knows any thing about biology knows that COLOR is the absolute LAST thing you look at when deciding what species something is, so other features should be used to determine what it is things like scale orientation head shape? (jungles would have a different shape to coastal, bredilies,diamonds,chrondos ect)
things like that, then after you've looked at all the other possibilities you can look at color and patterns

but that's jut my P.O.V

 

[licky]

would expect a Black and Gold animal, with a top length of 4-5 feet, and an attitude worse than my wifes after I get home from a boys night at 6am... Flame On! - JasonL

SPOT ON

 

[coz666]

its whatever your paperwork tells you it is. doesnt matter if it is purple with a skin collar. ;p

 

[jahan]

Boa, how can you be irrisponsible? jungles,coastal,darwins are all carpets and all carry the same number in the book!

 

[Retic]

Yes exactly.

 

[dentech]

looking at the pic, he looks like he has the same size scales as my male, and deffinately has the same bold lines and colouration as my 2, and as i brought my babies from someone i trust and respect as a breeder and i brought mine as jungles, and my female is more vendictive than my ex-wife with a temper to match, but that said who really cares its a fantastic looking snake so just enjoy it,

 

[derekm]

I think the Morelia genus (composed of only one species, Morelia spilota, IMO) is heading in the same direction as the domestic dog, cat and budgerigar, as far as captives are concerned over the long term. We'll know this for sure when the definitive standards for each type (or sub-species if you must) are written by show societies instead of turning up in the peer-reviewed publications of scientists. (if dog show societies are called kennel clubs, will snake show societies be called hide clubs or click-clack clubs? )

IMO, any sub-species or locality label applied to a Morelia type or individual is only biologically relevant to the extent that it refers to a genetically isolated wild population and its members. (For example, diamonds, coastals and jungles, IMO, are not separate genetically isolated populations, but a single genetically contiguous population with skin-deep local variations.) For a Morelia individual that is permanently prevented from contributing to its wild population's gene pool (or doesn't have a wild population because it was captive bred), any sub-species or locality label applied to it is a label of convenience (a shorthand way of communicating well-known attributes) if no commerce is involved, or a marketing label (like WeetBix or Vegemite) if commerce is involved. Either way, it is not a biologically significant label and should not be respected as one.

I strongly suspect that much or all of this argument applies to the Antaresia genus as well.

 

[Barno111]

Ok so if the genetics of the morelia family is all the same. Tell my why how is are hybrids, hybrids? this also goes with the antaresia family as well. If it is only colour and pattern between the subspecies, hybrids arent actually hybrids, are they? Becuase the genetics are still the same! Flame suit is on!

 

[Waterrat]

You two sentences are not making much sense Barno.
However, .... are you talking about natural hybrids, i.e. carpets in the wild, or captives? If the DNA for all Morelia variegata (all carpets) is the same, than there are no hybrids. The only valis case would be carpets and diamonds, called intergrades, a naturally occurring cross-breeding in the wild. If you are referring to captive "types" then you can call the hybrids or whatever you like, it's all artificial, highly imaginative and non-valid. Would you call a captive bred "Julatten carpet" X "Palmerson carpet" hybrid? That would be crazy wouldn't it?

 

[kupper]

it looks like a jag jungle LOL

 

[scam7278]

i think its a mossman carpet

 

[BROWNS]

One thing I would say about jungles is that all I've seen have blue mouths...the head pattern on that one boa doesn't scream jungle as it's not right through the eye and to the tip of the nose and the head pattern isn't the typical skull and crossbone type although we all know jungles can have reduced head patterns however along with that one having a reduced head pattern and although it is said colour doesn't distinguish what species it is however I'd say it also doesn't have the colour typical of any jungle maybe other than some Athertons or Kurandas etc but again its head pattern doesn't follow through to the nose after going through the eye so to speak.

OK genetically there may be many that are alike however we all still recognise a jungle from a murry darling or a coastal etc and as has been mentioned head shape and scalation seems to play a role although I've noticed even Tully jungles have a different head shape to Palmerstons.At first glance at that animal I personally wouldn't have said it's a jungle carpet python but that's just me!!

 

[gozz]

One thing I would say about jungles is that all I've seen have blue mouths...the head pattern on that one boa doesn't scream jungle as it's not right through the eye and to the tip of the nose and the head pattern isn't the typical skull and crossbone type although we all know jungles can have reduced head patterns however along with that one having a reduced head pattern and although it is said colour doesn't distinguish what species it is however I'd say it also doesn't have the colour typical of any jungle maybe other than some Athertons or Kurandas etc but again its head pattern doesn't follow through to the nose after going through the eye so to speak.

OK genetically there may be many that are alike however we all still recognise a jungle from a murry darling or a coastal etc and as has been mentioned head shape and scalation seems to play a role although I've noticed even Tully jungles have a different head shape to Palmerstons.At first glance at that animal I personally wouldn't have said it's a jungle carpet python but that's just me!!

I think you have sumed it up perfect Browns

 

[Sturdy]

this could also refrence to pseudechis australis.... they are all 1 big group...
i wouldnt mind seeing some research done on australis if anyone has info..

 

[Retic]

I think this is the crux of the matter, should it come down to what an individual considers it to be ? Most who have seen the snake say Jungle with little doubt, some say the opposite so who is right ? Jungles should have some form of skull and cross bones pattern on the head but not all do, it isn't the typical colour except some from Atherton or Kuranda so is there a typical colour ? Others well versed in carpets say that a mcdowelli can't have a solid head pattern so does that mean it isn't mcdowelli either ?
It seems as though we are no closer to an answer.

.At first glance at that animal I personally wouldn't have said it's a jungle carpet python but that's just me!!

 

[JasonL]

Well Boa, you know there's no real answer to this question as the genus is so highly variable, even amongst the "sub species". Splitters keep trying to split things down till it becomes absolutely rediculous, and the lumpers are just happy with the basic reasoning of if it happily breeds together, looks physically the same, then how different can it really be? seemingly early DNA reports backs the latter, but it may just be how that DNA is interpreted? Keep pushing the question and you will just go around in circles with people personal veiws, and at the end of the day, does the snake really care what it is? or what it's offspring look like?

 

[BROWNS]

Does that animal have a nice blue mouth?

I get local carpets around here with perfect skull n crossbones head patterns however they aren't jungles,I'll try dig up a pic of an ugly I caught once with the jungle type head pattern however everything else about this animal was not jungle like and more coastal like which is what it was.