The big debate.

[junglist*]

The difference (I assume) is that some people like morphs like albinism, hypomelanism, hypermelanism, striping, etc. as its something different or more aesthetically pleasing.

Whether it is because they just like them to look "natural" or because of the inbreeding involved to produce them, some people like their snakes COMPLETELY PURE and as nature intended.

Conveniently looking the other way from WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR EYES, THAT THERE IS NO PURE IN NATURE.

 

[junglist*]

A Jungle x Coastal is a hybrid, a Maccie x Stimson is hybrid. A Monkey cross Human is also a Hybrid.

But the analogy of interlocality individuals of the same species being hybrids means also that a norwegian PERSON who mates with a Peruvian is also a hybrid.

 

[mysnakesau]

GO JAMIE!!! You tell them & I will back you up.

Hybridisng is wrong and shouldn't be encouraged.

 

[swingonthespiral]

Gawd - that's what I mean about the level of debate on this one...

For about the 10th time on this thread alone - DOGS ARE A SINGLE SPECIES, THEY ARE NOT HYBRIDS - THE DIFFERENT BREEDS, FROM CHIHUAHUAS TO WOLFHOUNDS AND BEYOND, ARE ALL THE SAME SPECIES. A MIX BETWEEN THE TWO IS NOT A HYBRID!!!!!!!

Jamie

I never said that cross bred dogs were hybrids..... I just stated the similarities between to the dog and herp hobby as I am involved in both.

 

[mysnakesau]

I agree with what Jamie says, but I want to throw another question in - i am still trying to get my head around the difference between a morph and a hybrid. i am certainly not sticking up for hybrids so don't get the wrong idea..

If a dog is a dog is a dog and you say a cross from one breed to another is not a hybrid, so what makes one python species different to another python species? Example a jungle x coastal is considered a hybrid - they are both carpet pythons so what makes breeding these 2 together a hybrid.

 

[swingonthespiral]

If a dog is a dog is a dog and you say a cross from one breed to another is not a hybrid, so what makes one python species different to another python species? Example a jungle x coastal is considered a hybrid - they are both carpet pythons so what makes breeding these 2 together a hybrid.

My point exactly..... a jungle and a normal coastal are different subspecies therefore making them an intra-specific hybrid... i posted the definition on the 2nd or 3rd page i think.

 

[Miss Morph-lette]

Go Steve and swing!

My view is this. Hybridization is no different to 2 people from different country's conceiving a child. I wonder how many of the hybrid hater's have parents that are from different countries? Your hybrids... do you hate yourself?

Kane

Of course we don't hate ourselves We are now superior to you in many many different ways!

And with that we will take over the world! Muahahahahahaha!!

*cough*

erm..

Hehe...

well...

 

[Bryony]

My point exactly..... a jungle and a normal coastal are different subspecies therefore making them an intra-specific hybrid... i posted the definition on the 2nd or 3rd page i think.

See this is the exact reason why people get confused.
For people to form an opinion they need all the facts and the education to make a complete decision.

I agree we should preserve our 'pure' lines but i also don't mind intra-specific hybrids (some animals only).

As for the dog debate/putting it in dog lovers terms

Family Canidae (coyotes, dogs, foxes, jackals, and wolves)
- domestic dogs are all canis lupus familiaris

With in sub-species (lupus) is dingo, domestic dog and gray wolf (non aussie) - this would be intra-specific

Crossing a fox and a dog would be considered a hybrid


Please correct me if i am wrong

 

[swingonthespiral]

See this is the exact reason why people get confused.
For people to form an opinion they need all the facts and the education to make a complete decision.

I agree we should preserve our 'pure' lines but i also don't mind intra-specific hybrids.

As for the dog debate/putting it in god lovers terms

Family Canidae (coyotes, dogs, foxes, jackals, and wolves)
- domestic dogs are all canis lupus familiaris

With in sub-species (lupus) is dingo, domestic dog and gray wolf (non aussie) - this would be intra-specific

Crossing a fox and a dog would be considered a hybrid


Please correct me if i am wrong

YAY for Bryony lol...

You obviously know heaps about dogs (my experience is only with show and agility)..... do you know why say a border collie is not a different sub species to say a huskie or whatever??? wouldnt this mean that they are from different locales, with totally different appearances and husbandry needs etc would that not warrent a different sub species in your opinion????

Sorry for off topic

 

[Bryony]

know why say a border collie is not a different sub species to say a huskie or whatever??? wouldnt this mean that they are from different locales, with totally different appearances and husbandry needs etc would that not warrent a different sub species in your opinion????

Well i couldn't find any further information on domestic dogs classifications but i tend to agree. That point was also going to be my argument. I am not sure if cause they are domesticated they just all fall into the general species? I have a more extensive breed specific book at home so hopefully it will clear this up for us

 

[junglepython2]

All domesticated dogs are very closely related and are all part of the same sub-species despite their morhphological differences. Last I heard most of these differences are put down to only about 12 gene locus.

Despite the morphological differences between a jack russel and a great dane crossing the two would be more analogous to crossing a pure yellow diamond with a white diamond python, then to crossing a diamond with a coastal and its nothing at all like crossing a coastal with a woma for example.

 

[swingonthespiral]

Well i couldn't find any further information on domestic dogs classifications but i tend to agree. That point was also going to be my argument. I am not sure if cause they are domesticated they just all fall into the general species? I have a more extensive breed specific book at home so hopefully it will clear this up for us

I'm gonna put my foot in it but i think herps are domesticated...... if anyone wants to look up the actual definition of domestic..... but thats a new thread and new argument to start and be flamed for LMAO

But thanks Bryony..... if you could pm me with what you find in that book it owuld be awesome...

 

[Hickson]

do you know why say a border collie is not a different sub species to say a huskie or whatever??? wouldnt this mean that they are from different locales, with totally different appearances and husbandry needs etc would that not warrent a different sub species in your opinion????

All domestic dogs are evolved from the wolf (originally, many thousands of years ago). Overtime, as Homo sapiens spread across the globe to occupy all manner of environments, dog varieties were either linebred for certain characteristics or natural selection favoured certain characteristics. But they are all the same rootstock and can be bred back to one another. The only thing stopping a Chihuahua mating with an Irish Wolfhound is the physical logistics, not genetics. And the Irish Wolfhound's apetite.

And for those wondering about the word morph - it's a contraction of morphology, or "morphological features". The Homo saps in my office has many different morphs - black hair, blond, brunette, blue eyes, brown eyes, ear lobes attached or hanging, wavy hair, straight hair etc.



Hix

 

[Kali7]

If they can breed together, and have young that can breed, then they are by the original definition - the same species.
However, people stick their racist noses in the air about interbreeding between races, so why not the same attitude for snakes.

*giggle* don't really have an opinion actually, just like to be annoying.

 

[Australis]

I'm gonna put my foot in it but i think herps are domesticated...... if anyone wants to look up the actual definition of domestic..... but thats a new thread and new argument to start and be flamed for LMAO

Reptile are now Domestic :shock:

 

[slim6y]

All domestic dogs are evolved from the wolf (originally, many thousands of years ago). Overtime, as Homo sapiens spread across the globe to occupy all manner of environments, dog varieties were either linebred for certain characteristics or natural selection favoured certain characteristics. But they are all the same rootstock and can be bred back to one another. The only thing stopping a Chihuahua mating with an Irish Wolfhound is the physical logistics, not genetics. And the Irish Wolfhound's apetite.

And for those wondering about the word morph - it's a contraction of morphology, or "morphological features". The Homo saps in my office has many different morphs - black hair, blond, brunette, blue eyes, brown eyes, ear lobes attached or hanging, wavy hair, straight hair etc.



Hix

So has it been done then (artificially at the least?) the wolhuahua?

 

[Bryony]

All domesticated dogs are very closely related and are all part of the same sub-species despite their morhphological differences. Last I heard most of these differences are put down to only about 12 gene locus.

Despite the morphological differences between a jack russel and a great dane crossing the two would be more analogous to crossing a pure yellow diamond with a white diamond python, then to crossing a diamond with a coastal and its nothing at all like crossing a coastal with a woma for example.

Ahhhh ok
But then what about dingo and domestic dog? is it cause domestic vs wild?

From my recent reading( just then lol) all domestic dogs evolved from the gray wolf...then were selectively bred for millenia for various behaviors, sensory capabilities, and physical attributes.

So i think i just answered my own question lol

 

[mysnakesau]

- domestic dogs are all canis lupus familiaris

With in sub-species (lupus) is dingo, domestic dog and gray wolf (non aussie) - this would be intra-specific

Crossing a fox and a dog would be considered a hybrid


Please correct me if i am wrong

now i am starting to understand (I think). Now correct me if I am wrong
So because dogs all come under the one scientific species name, a cross from one breed to another isn't considered hybrid. But a jungle python and coastal do have different scientic names so crossing these 2 is a hybrid even though they are both morelia species?

I should just forget about trying to understand. I am for pure lines anyway so doesn't matter to me if i never work it out.

 

[Bryony]

hix you were too quick for me lol

 

[Hickson]

So has it been done then (artificially at the least?) the wolhuahua?

I've got know idea - but why would you want to?

Oh yeah, I forgot - for the money.



Hix