Reptile Emotions Debate

[splat868]

I went to think about an intelligent response, but then I realized it's Friday and I have a life!!!

Lmao!

It is a really tough debate!

As yet, I haven't seen the scientific study, but would also want to ask the scientists what they deem as emotion in their study.

I think it really does come down to what emotions we are talking about, because humans are acredited with so many, and yet most animals exhibit the same things that we deem to be emotions in humans.

 

[fugawi]

Cockney.....A Bobtail Skink will stay with its mate long after its mate has been squished. Is this love, maybe a reduced form, a kinda liking of the association perhaps. Pure instinct would have it just leave immediately, thinking can't breed, can't eat it, can't help protect with numbers, therefore get food and self protect in hiding.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

As a lot of people are saying- Define emotions first. I think this is important to the Qstn asked.

I would have to say reptiles have no emotions & that everything that we see & perceive it to be emotions, is more just a reaction to touch,smell,sound etc creating an emotional looking response.

A snake is probably content when it feeds, or sometimes even lucky, but this is more of response than emotion.
A lizard or snake may react when stroked, but I reckon it is just responding to nerves or a calm feeling.

I define emotions as love or sadness, feeling down or the likes. When the prey gets away from the snake or lizard i don't think they feel anything accept S--t I have to try to catch another one if I am to survive. I guees they have a good feeling when they have sex, but this is just a habit of reproduction.
I am sure they don't love us anyway, they might put up with us, but not love.

Anyway thats my 2 bobs worth of Bull.

Chers
Ian.

 

[ianinoz]

From how I've seen Lizzy behave, I think Lizzy definately displays emotions.

I'm sure Lizzy displays happiness when he's found a really big juicy roach, bug or spider or a nice food treat on his treat lid. He even seems to show off by getting very frisky.

Lizzy looks like he's in lizard paradise when he's on "his" transformer.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

From how I've seen Lizzy behave, I think Lizzy definately displays emotons.

I'm sure Lizzy displays happiness when he's found a really big juicy roach, bug or spider or a nice food treat on his treat lid. He even seems to show off by getting very frisky.

I think that you will find this is a feeding response not an emotion of happiness.

To give another example, I was pretty much given a 2.5 yr old Scrub Python(2.5m length) some time ago that had not had much if any handling.
So you can imagine that he was a bit stroppy. It took me a few months but I did get him to settle down very well to the piont where I could sit with him on my lap & scracth his head if he was in the mood & even swim with him in the pool. Yah & I have pics to prove it.

But all this came with a lot of patience & a lot of bites, allthough the bites got less intent towards the end. All I was doing though was getting the snake used to me & the handling. I will guarantee that he did not love me, he did love his food & comfort & at any time I had handled him the wrong way or did the wrong thing, he would certianly let me know.
But this is not emotions, it is just getting used to a way of existence through perserverence.
I will guarantee if let him go he would have never come back to me because he liked a scratch or swim in the pool.

Cheers
Ian.

 

[longqi]

We had a wild caught retic about 3metres long escape
It returned 2 back into the display a few weeks later with a few rat bites etc but still in good nick
Did it return because it liked our place?
Or because white rats are tastier?

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

We had a wild caught retic about 3metres long escape
It returned 2 back into the display a few weeks later with a few rat bites etc but still in good nick
Did it return because it liked our place?
Or because white rats are tastier?

For a start I hope you were not in Aussie when this happened.
I think that it just knew where it was best fed & looked after, went walkabout but came back.

 

[Just_Plain_Nuts]

Actually also Friday 13th
I wonder if Freddy is watching

Yeah i am and i see all

As a lot of people are saying- Define emotions first. I think this is important to the Qstn asked.

I would have to say reptiles have no emotions & that everything that we see & perceive it to be emotions, is more just a reaction to touch,smell,sound etc creating an emotional looking response.

A snake is probably content when it feeds, or sometimes even lucky, but this is more of response than emotion.
A lizard or snake may react when stroked, but I reckon it is just responding to nerves or a calm feeling.

I define emotions as love or sadness, feeling down or the likes. When the prey gets away from the snake or lizard i don't think they feel anything accept S--t I have to try to catch another one if I am to survive. I guees they have a good feeling when they have sex, but this is just a habit of reproduction.
I am sure they don't love us anyway, they might put up with us, but not love.

Anyway thats my 2 bobs worth of Bull.

Chers
Ian.

That's it a lot of people define emotions in different ways, then you also have the subtle yet significant differences between emotions and feelings

 

[Elapidae1]

People keep saying that reptiles at least display fear and stress, I can't see any proof of this either.
it's an instinctive response fight or flight. Does a fly display fear through it's multiple attempts to dodge the swat? I don't think so.
Longqi, you said that big retics and Burms flee humans despite easily being able to kill them, you came to the conclusion this must be fear, I disagree, it's survival. Lions could probably kill elephants, but would they survive the battle or die from the injuries recieved, or from being left vulnerable through the exhaustion of the task?

 

[hrafna]

People keep saying that reptiles at least display fear and stress, I can't see any proof of this either.
it's an instinctive response fight or flight. Does a fly display fear through it's multiple attempts to dodge the swat? I don't think so.
Longqi, you said that big retics and Burms flee humans despite easily being able to kill them, you came to the conclusion this must be fear, I disagree, it's survival. Lions could probably kill elephants, but would they survive the battle or die from the injuries recieved, or from being left vulnerable through the exhaustion of the task?

sorry but i doubt a lion could kill a healthy adult elephant, yet they do try to pick off the young from time to time!

 

[longirostris]

@ Longirostris, RE cognitive thought, I'm not sure where I remember it from but some primates and maybe birds have been found to use tools for hunting/foraging. Wouldn't this require cognitive thought?

Jackrabbit. humans exhibit instinctive behaviour when born with a feeding response.

Hi Steve

There are a lot of animals that use tools for gathering/hunting/extracting food. I would argue that what appears to be problem solving is actually either instinctive behaviour or learned through conditioning (watching and repeating). A really good example of what you are suggesting is Sea Otters using 2 rocks to smash open shell fish they collect. It is definately tool use, but have the Sea Otters cognitively problem solved in order to arrive at the conclusion that smashing shell fish between 2 rocks will yield food. I am not sure. I personally do not believe so. But it could be argued that the Sea Otters have effectively problem solved using a cognitive process. For me I believe it is base response (instinctive or conditionally learned) to an even more basic instinct, the need for food.

Whether an animal can cognitively learn responses to environmental stimuli is an interesting topic in itself. As you quite rightly point out, tool use could be regarded as a cognitive response to problem solving.

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

Hi Steve

There are a lot of animals that use tools for gathering/hunting/extracting food. I would argue that what appears to be problem solving is actually either instinctive behaviour or learned through conditioning (watching and repeating). A really good example of what you are suggesting is Sea Otters using 2 rocks to smash open shell fish they collect. It is definately tool use, but have the Sea Otters cognitively problem solved in order to arrive at the conclusion that smashing shell fish between 2 rocks will yield food. I am not sure. I personally do not believe so. But it could be argued that the Sea Otters have effectively problem solved using a cognitive process. For me I believe it is base response (instinctive or conditionally learned) to an even more basic instinct, the need for food.

Whether an animal can cognitively learn responses to environmental stimuli is an interesting topic in itself. As you quite rightly point out, tool use could be regarded as a cognitive response to problem solving.

I use my tool all the time, but I cannot still solve problems. HA Ha

 

[Elapidae1]

sorry but i doubt a lion could kill a healthy adult elephant, yet they do try to pick off the young from time to time!

It doesn't matter, the point is that just because an animal can doesn't mean it's in it's best interest to do so.

Thanks longirostris, I agree that the behaviour is most likely learned, but another case that comes to mind is a bird species that drops nuts into intersections in America then when the lights turn red and the traffic stops they fly down to collect the kernels. That's impressive, how was the example set for these birds to learn this behaviour?

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

It doesn't matter, the point is that just because an animal can doesn't mean it's in it's best interest to do so.

Thanks longirostris, I agree that the behaviour is most likely learned, but another case that comes to mind is a bird species that drops nuts into intersections in America then when the lights turn red and the traffic stops they fly down to collect the kernels. That's impressive, how was the example set for these birds to learn this behaviour?

Steve don't you know, The americans taught them.

 

[souldoubt]

People keep saying that reptiles at least display fear and stress, I can't see any proof of this either.
it's an instinctive response fight or flight. Does a fly display fear through it's multiple attempts to dodge the swat? I don't think so.
Longqi, you said that big retics and Burms flee humans despite easily being able to kill them, you came to the conclusion this must be fear, I disagree, it's survival. Lions could probably kill elephants, but would they survive the battle or die from the injuries recieved, or from being left vulnerable through the exhaustion of the task?

Biologically speaking I think that emotions such as fear and physical feelings such as pain are in built in to many animals to aid their survival in the wild but that doesn't make them any less of an emotion or a physical feeling.
I would argue that if an animal feels fear a flight response is stimulated and this aids in the animals survival, just like a pain response is associated with traumatic injuries so that an animal avoids them in the future.

I hope and I'm sure you are just stimulating conversation Peter, and not actually expecting a widely accepted answer to be developed because this is a far from a black and white topic.

I do believe that reptiles have emotions without a doubt, but I don't know about the kind such as becoming attached to an owner, although I do believe they are capable of trust (I don't know if trust would be considered an emotion but the capacity for trust would show they are capable of more than they are typically thought to be), I think many other keepers would have noticed their snakes smell them if they open the enclosure and then settle down - yet remain alerted if it is someone else.
I also believe that they are capable of feeling fear, as they will fight or dash when they feel threatened.

Everything we say is circumstancial but I think snakes feel emotions such as fear (sorry to keep coming back to fear but its the best example) because I think those emotions will help them survive - I think that with fight or flight an element of instinct and emotion (fear) are involved.
Emotions such as boredom are usually gauged by visual signs such as stereotypic behaviour which snakes haven't been documented to show but I don't think that because you don't visually see something doesn't mean it's definitely not happening, but it is difficult to argue for.

 

[longqi]

People keep saying that reptiles at least display fear and stress, I can't see any proof of this either.
it's an instinctive response fight or flight. Does a fly display fear through it's multiple attempts to dodge the swat? I don't think so.
Longqi, you said that big retics and Burms flee humans despite easily being able to kill them, you came to the conclusion this must be fear, I disagree, it's survival. Lions could probably kill elephants, but would they survive the battle or die from the injuries recieved, or from being left vulnerable through the exhaustion of the task?

There is a vast difference between a lion versus elephant and a 7metre retic versus an unarmed man
Big retics can take down tigers so a man is just childs play to them as evidenced by the dozen or so fatalities in the USA from tame retics since the late 1990s
Yet in every case I have been involved in with relocations and in every case on TV or facebook or where ever, the retic/anaconda has always tried to flee until cornered
So their survival, if it came to a brawl, is pretty much odds on in their favour???

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

There is a vast difference between a lion versus elephant and a 7metre retic versus an unarmed man
Big retics can take down tigers so a man is just childs play to them as evidenced by the dozen or so fatalities in the USA from tame retics since the late 1990s
Yet in every case I have been involved in with relocations and in every case on TV or facebook or where ever, the retic/anaconda has always tried to flee until cornered
So their survival, if it came to a brawl, is pretty much odds on in their favour???

I for one totally agree with you in this case, But from what I understand most if not all the deaths due to retics are due to undue care & attention from keepers when feeding or cleaning. So a keeper being taken by his pet, I guess this is a feeding response not love, & the wild one don't love so they go away.

 

[longqi]

I agree that those deaths were mainly through handlers errors
I only used then to show that most people are no match for even a tamed retic

That last bit of your final sentence is really the questioned part in all this
They dont love so they go away??
They have instinctive reasoning to know that humans are danger??
Or they fear humans??

This is actually quite appropriate right this minute
I have a bit under 4metres of retic that up until a couple of days ago wanted to bite my face off lying beside on the bed as I write
[Uh Oh how did that story go again??}
It has spent most of today cruising around the bedroom or in its viv
Now that I am back inside it has slid up beside me

I am not suggesting in any way shape manner or form that it 'loves me' or anything else
Because if I move quickly it reacts instantly into strike position
But if Im gentle it will let me stroke it and doesnt attempt to move away
Its viv is open with its hide and so are two dark cupboards and yet it has chosen to come up here beside the guy who has been attempting to train it into accepting handling and who it tried to bite on far too many occasions for me to feel very comfortable just now

 

[KaotikJezta]

All I can say is the ability to reason has made humans ridiculously arrogant and self important. The only reason our 'emotions' are any different to the so called instinctive reactions of other animals is because we have these big brains and we can irrationally rationalise them into something special and unique. As my sculpture teacher often said the biggest step backwards in the evolution of humans was the development of language.

 

[Wally]

Regular updates thanks longqi, just so we know you're still with us.