Reptile Emotions Debate

[ianinoz]

Just a thought or two.

Many people attribute strong emotions to their pet rats/mice , they say these animals can be very affectionate towards their owners.

Same for owners of parrots.

We've all seen how parrots interact with their owners, and we all know that these animals bond strongly with their human companions.

The brains of these animals are no larger than many reptiles.

So why is such a big leap to attribute real emotional responses to naturally social species of lizards ?

I've only observed one reptile closely over an extended period of time (my little mate Lizzy the wild eastern water skink who decided to live with us inside our house and who became very friendly and comfortable around us) and I am certain Lizzy exhibited joy, happiness, inquisitiveness, pleasure, and even liked me.

Can Lizards be happy? I think they can.

Can lizards "love" their owners the way dogs and cats do ? I think the jury is still out on that one, but there is evidence they can like and even enjoy being around their owners, and in some cases enjoy physical contact with them.

Will they seek out physical contact of their own accord like a dog or a cat or a pet mouse of rat or a even a parrots will ? I don't know, I can only relate how Lizzy one day made physical contact with me when I didn't notice he was about by patting the side of my knee with one of his front feet , was Lizzy trying to get my attention ?

Maybe Lizzy has just imprinted strongly on me and was used to my always giving him attention and talking to him when ever I saw him.

I can also relate how Lizzy didn't appreciate daytime visitors, Lizzy would disappear to one of his hiding places if someone came to front door when Lizzy was about, ad Lizzy really didn't like it when he had daytime guests - he'd make himself scarce for next day or two.
Will be interesting to see how Lizzy interacts with our new grandson when he starts get's baby sat by us (if Lizzy returns in the spring from his winter sleep).

 

[Ramsayi]

To all the believers out there,try a little test.

One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.

If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.

 

[Sock Puppet]

and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.

Well they do say absence makes the heart grow fonder, or the other one,
If you love something, set it free, if it comes back, it's heart is yours, if it doesn't, then it never gave a rat's **** about you in the first place.
That's why my enclosures remain closed when I'm not cleaning them or handling the occupants.

 

[wranga]

To all the believers out there,try a little test.

One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.

If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.

are you saying they wont love me in the morning

 

[souldoubt]

No problem, you are not hijacking my post at all. Your point about using tools is well made and I agree that there are a number of animals that use tools in the collection and or extraction of food. Interesting point is that tool use in animals is almost always associated with the collection or extraction of food. My belief is that in all cases where tool use by animals is observed it is a conditioned response to a baser stimuli. By this I mean that the animal has learned what to do through observation and trial. In some cases the response may be even baser then conditioned and could very well be a programmed response (instinctive). I tend to lean towards tool use as a conditioned learning response. In the case of your crows with the Cane Toads it most definately is a conditioned response. The Crows have observed other crows eating cane toads and watched the results. They have also learned again by trial and observation that flipping the cane toad on its back makes the cane toad vulnerable. I do not believe the Crow recognised the cane toad had poison glands in its upper dermis and then thought that if it flipped it over the underbelly may not have poison glands. The whole process would have been accidental. A crow in the process of trying to grab a toad flipped it on its back accidentally and consumed it whilst still on its back with no ill effect. Other crows observe behaviour which first crow by now has repeated several times successfully and try it themselves. This is a conditioned response to a baser stimuli. I am not even sure I would call it problem solving unless you are trying to attach a human label to the behaviour. Problem solving is how WE describe the behaviour we are observing in the animals. If I was going to solve a problem I need to be aware that a problem exists and then I would need to understand the complexity of the problem and from there I would need to think (cognitive response) about how I am going to resolve said problem. Awareness/consciousness/thinking come back into play in this discussion. These are concepts that are for me require an brain capable of abstract thought. I do not believe this exists any where alse on earth other then in Humans.

You're argument is most certainly credible, but I still dont think that we can say beyond a fair amount of doubt that a crow (somewhere along the line) hasn't realised where the source of the poison lies. Can we say with any certainty that a crow hasn't associated ill effects with the consumption of secreted poison or poison glands and is thus avoiding them? I think your scenario of the crow observing how to eat a toad with no ill effects is definitely possible, but I think it's far from impossible to say that a crow may have recognised the source of danger and is now avoiding it (I don't know if it would be possible for a crow to consume a non-lethal dose of bufotoxins as it would be such a minute amount)

As for the making tools being associated with food, I think you're absolutely right it is an instinctive behaviour to get food. However, wouldn't the animal need to realise that there is a problem (it cant get to the food) in order to feel the need to make a tool to get the food?
or else wouldn't it just persevere instinctively trying to get the food as normal without a tool.

but we have diverged haha back on topic, reptile emotions...

 

[fugawi]

Has anyone seen about the NZ parrot, the Kea. I was watching a show I think it was called "The Smartest Bird In The World". These parrots are native to NZ and are really annoying to the locals. They pull the rubber from around car windows and remove windscreen wipers. Another annoying thing is they communicate and work together to open wheelie bin lids, even if the locals put a brick on the lid. Some scientists concocted a food reward puzzle tube made from perspex, where you drop a food reward in the top and it drops through a series of problems like a dowel across the tube, flaps to lift with string and slides. Every time they did it within a minute. If the Kea needed help it called another one over. These weren't trained Kea's. The experiments were done in the field with wild Kea's that flew over.
There is no doubt that the Kea can problem solve and communicate with others and work together to solve problems.
I have seen Ravens tested in a similar way with a food reward put on a string, hanging off a trapese. The experiment meant that the raven could pull the string within reach but if it let go of the string it fell back out of reach, so the raven got a mate to pull the string up so it could get to the food. They had 2 rewards on 2 strings so the ravens swapped, allowing the other raven to get some too. The same program had a raven in a cage near an electronic safe. The presenter opened the safe and put his wallet in, then locked it and left. The raven unlocked its cage, then put in the correct code, opened up the safe and took the wallet. (I think this raven was trained)

In any case, neither birds did these things through instinct. They solved the problems they were confronted with. Therefore they can use abstract thought to problem solve. With birds being basically flying lizards (for arguments sake), why is it impossible to believe that reptiles can use abstract thought and therefore feel emotions.

P.S. Were kicking butt in the poll........Nah, Nah......OL

 

[GeckPhotographer]

To all the believers out there,try a little test.

One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.

If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.

I am a believer in reptiles having emotions. Does not mean I think any reptile loves me, or even loves for that matter. My snake used to bite me every time I handle it, now it only bites any other person that handles it and only tries to escape from me.

With birds being basically flying lizards (for arguments sake)

Birds are flying reptiles, not just for arguments sake they are flying reptiles. But not flying lizards, they are in fact closer to flying crocodiles.

 

[longqi]

To all the believers out there,try a little test.

One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.

If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.

Now this really is the definitive test of 'love' isnt it?
I have been waiting for it to be suggested

I do actually leave vivs open but only if someone is close by or if the room itself is secure
At this moment there is 5ft of iguana 12ft of 2 albino burmese and 20ft of 4 chondro just hanging around the display doing their own thing
In the context of this question what I do is NOT a valid comparison and cannot prove a thing either way because someone is here with them
Even if the bigger burmese keeps coming over to me; in this particular case, it saw me bring a box of rats into the back earlier and knows it will be fed later

Fugawi
I spent many years in the Mackenzie country of NZ
We even had cut down 410 shotguns to keep keas away from lambs [kea guns]
The way they would lure you away from one group of lambs until you were far enough away for other; previously hidden keas; to suddenly attack the undefended ones was pretty frightening
Bit like that movie the birds
Black Backed Gulls are the other that causes similar problems but are not as smart

 

[fugawi]

If it does come back, it doesn't suggest love, it suggests it knows where the food is good.

I said for arguments sake because they are not birds without wings, but a close relative with a common ancestor, of which the crocodilians are the closest.

 

[D3pro]

I get love bites from my snakes.... if that helps

 

[Elapidae1]

Interesting link to an article on Human/Ape behaviour, including tool use. Human and ape behavior - encyclopedia article - Citizendium

I still do not believe that Reptiles are capable of emotion and I am surprised at the poll count suggesting the majority believe they are. It got me thinking that maybe the people who are more prone to believing animals feel emotion, also feel they have to project there opinions/emotions on others.

 

[FAY]

We had a woma escape from the verandah.
It went across the verandah, through the reptile room, along the hall way to the loungeroom where we were.
Does that mean it 'loves and missed us'???

 

[SamNabz]

Why do people keep comparing reptiles to mammals throughout this thread?

To think that they are even remotely similar is ludacris and shows your inexperience. Go do some more reading..

 

[Ramsayi]

We had a woma escape from the verandah.
It went across the verandah, through the reptile room, along the hall way to the loungeroom where we were.
Does that mean it 'loves and missed us'???

Yes it does Fay.
Well either that or someone in your house smells like a rat

 

[wranga]

Yes it does Fay.
Well either that or someone in your house smells like a rat

you rat Fay

 

[cement]

Maybe their rhythms are that much slower to us that they have emotions, but it vibrates at such a low level we can't possibly pick up on it!

I too had a snake that i left out sunbaking in my yard. When she had warmed up enough she went for a cruise, did a crap and went back into the shed of her own accord a trek of some 15-20 metres and around obstacles (avairies) and curled up on the incubator that is next to her enclosure.
I think she recognizes her "home range" and went back to her enclosure but didn't quite get back in there but stayed close by, which is natural behavior. I would say that if she got cold and sun went down its possible that she would have even gone back into her hide.

 

[D3pro]

Levels of stress are not emotions. Reptiles have very simple behaviours and all are linked to their individual survival and the survival of their species. They run on pure instinct and have no need for emotions, that's why they have been so successful. If they bite a person, it's only because that person has triggered a instinctual reaction such as feeding or a safety response. If they "cuddle" a person it's only because they haven't being triggered or because being close to 36 degrees triggers their instinct to warm up. As much as people like to think they have emotions and love people, they don't... and there is no proof to say otherwise

 

[SamNabz]

^^ Exactly right.

As I mentioned in a previous thread about this, they run on nothing but instinct, not love or hate... Just instinct.

 

[longqi]

Fay
Some may people may interpret it that way but there are plenty of other options too

Samnabz
Do you believe everything you read in books?
Our experience with reptiles is extremely limited
Most books and studies on this subject have used either wild caught or breeding stock
Possibly the answers may be much different if 3rd or 4th generation reptiles kept as 'pets' were used??

Steve1
I am also very surprised at the poll so far
But possibly a lot of doubters are simply ignoring the thread and havnt voted


At this point I would probably say the answers point more towards a tie which is excellent in my opinion
Hopefully some people who were convinced that reptiles do have not any emotions will ask a few questions now
Hopefully others who are convinced their reptiles 'love them to bits' will do the same

 

[ianinoz]

To all the believers out there,try a little test.

One evening purposely leave the enclosure door open and see if your beloved reptile will come and seek you out which to me they would,given that they love you and want to be with you.

If in the morning they are gone try calling to them in a calm loving voice and see if if they come to you given that they love you,and after an entire night away from you would be missing you greatly.

Maybe I need to remind you that Lizzy is a free agent, free to come and go as Lizzy pleases, does not live in an enclosure as a captive lizard, Lizzy has the run of the house and while I've never tried calling Lizzy, the sweet little creature chose to live with us and seems to enjoy our company (well my company mostly, Lizzy wasn't 100% sure of my wife, she did scary things sometimes like vacuuming and using a hairdrier).

Lizzy also regularly seeked me out, I'd regularly find Lizzy looking over my shoulder from the head the lounge, or watching / studying me from the chair next to me (only inches away).
Lizzy seems to like my talking to him and would respond in way that indicated he was paying attention and was very confortable around me.

Haven't seen Lizzy for a couple of weeks, I'm presuming Lizzy has gone to sleep for winter and will be back when the days warm up and we start getting longer daylight hours.


Lizzy probably passes those tests.