Sean_L
Not so new Member
If I had the choice, Id put them all together. In a large communal enclosure. Then theyd choose each other. Thats just me though.
Legal trading of wild caught reptiles
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- antaresia maculosa antaresia stimsoni aspidites melanocephalus aspidites ramsayi ctenotus lancelini dendrelaphis punctulata egernia frerei egernia major morelia bredli morelia carinata morelia oenpelliensis morelia spilota mcdowelli morelia spilota spilota morelia spilota variegata oedura tryoni pseudechis guttatus pseudechis porphyriacus varanus giganteus varanus indicus
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andynic07
Very Well-Known Member
A little bit dangerous for the weaker males.
yes I have found several different colour and/or pattern variations in numbers that you could consider the normal representation of pythons for that area.
Sean_L
Not so new Member
Im talking 10m x 10m enclosure here, minimum. If only I had the space for each species.
Each enclosure would contain the same plants/ substrate and accessories as the animals original habitat. I get a kick out of that.
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Thats life. Its tuff. (in response to weaker males)
As long as numbers were kept within reason, I dont see too much of a problem.
Each enclosure would contain the same plants/ substrate and accessories as the animals original habitat. I get a kick out of that.
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Thats life. Its tuff. (in response to weaker males)
As long as numbers were kept within reason, I dont see too much of a problem.
andynic07
Very Well-Known Member
When people talk about Local specific animals what is the interpretation of this? Would you consider a Brisbane coastal carpet a locality? If so there is a vast difference in pockets within Brisbane itself. All of the coastals that I have found on my property have all been different colours or patterns.
Haven't forgotten champagne in fact I have mentioned a number of times about the variation within populations. They all still tend to look the same though. You don't get something that looks like a diamond popping up in bundaberg. Unless it's an escapee.
''I find a darwin's natural patterning and colouration far more intricate.'' I agree but have you seen the variation of darwins within a locality? how would you choose the ''wild representation'' for that area? and which would be the right one to reintroduce if the wild population was to disappear?
Sean_L
Not so new Member
I think to be 'Locale specific' the animal needs to show distinct variation from others of its species, while retaining similarity between others within its same range. That my interpretation. Unless you can pin down similarities that are distinct within the area (and different from other areas), I dont think you can safely call it a 'locale'.
This would obviously need more thought though. Thats off the top of my head.
This would obviously need more thought though. Thats off the top of my head.
yes but you do get reduced patterns, hypos and what would be referred to as ''wild types'' within the same area and Im not talking about the one off breath takers that you find but in large numbers. so which one is the correct wild representation for that locality?
Sean_L
Not so new Member
That which is the dominant colour form in a given range. One that is clearly distinct from the adjacent range. Im only postulating however.
Pattern will vary, as each animal is unique in its own way. Colour will vary too as mood and temperature, as well as health, can alter the colour of even an individual animal. However the habitat that an animal resides in determines its colour and pattern. Whichever animal is best suited to the environment will likely be the most common, due to natural selection. Thats the one Id reintroduce.
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Large numbers perhaps, but I challenge you to show me theyre a majority.
I do agree with you guys (in theory) and in an ideal world everyone would be a locality purist or at least not cross sub species but unfortunately its quicker to just cross localities and sub species to get your desired paint job.
If they pop up in a reasonable percentage champagne then they would be a representation for that area IMO. As you mentioned even animals from the same clutch will differ markedly but not to the extent that you might confuse them as something else. Some areas conversely will have most of the individuals that look the same and this is where most of our locale animals come from.
Andy could you readily say that all of the ones you found were local carpet pythons and weren't escapees? Coastal carpets change a lot with age though so I'd probably go more with adult appearance that by comparing juveniles and adults. I have seen some pretty awesome looking coastal hatchlings that when mature looked just like your average brisbane animal.
Andy could you readily say that all of the ones you found were local carpet pythons and weren't escapees? Coastal carpets change a lot with age though so I'd probably go more with adult appearance that by comparing juveniles and adults. I have seen some pretty awesome looking coastal hatchlings that when mature looked just like your average brisbane animal.
andynic07
Very Well-Known Member
Maybe we could get some photos posted of wild type locality specific animals as examples and discuss from there what personal experiences we have had and variations we have seen. This may pronounce how hard it is to actually pin down a colour or pattern of a locality. I think locality animals are more generalised characteristics rather than being the majority of the population.
Sean_L
Not so new Member
Thats the difference. A true 'purist' isnt after a 'desired paintjob'. Theyre after an untouched representative animal from a specific area and it means more to them because of this. But as I said, there nothing wrong with paintjobs (haha, paintjobs), but I just personally dont see this as purist.
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The two arent mutually exclusive. In fact, they compliment each other. They are generalised because there is a general majority. IMO
But, good idea. We should get some photos to discuss.
I agree Andy there is huge variation but if you go to a given area you can expect a given species to look a certain way. Coastal carpets are a poor choice of comparison because for the majority of their range they look similar enough that most people couldn't tell the difference.
Stimsons would be a better choice as they do look decidedly different in different areas. A coastal from Brisbane and a coastal from bundaberg aren't going to differ enough to say it's not just local variation. If you put the two together without telling a point of origin most people wouldn't be able to pick. A stimsoni from the wheat belt is going to look different to one from the pilbara. Much greater distance between them but you should get the idea.
Stimsons would be a better choice as they do look decidedly different in different areas. A coastal from Brisbane and a coastal from bundaberg aren't going to differ enough to say it's not just local variation. If you put the two together without telling a point of origin most people wouldn't be able to pick. A stimsoni from the wheat belt is going to look different to one from the pilbara. Much greater distance between them but you should get the idea.
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
Firstly, on the notion of “purist” there is no definition with respect to reptile breeding. Secondly, artificial of any kind is not the same as natural selection which happens in the wild.
Now for a few simple realities....
Removing animals form the wild stops natural selection from operating. So the population produced as a result of captive breeding will differ from the population in the wild under going natural selection. This is why ‘breed and release’ programs begin their releases after only a few generations of captive breeding (to build up numbers).
If you have one male and one female from a specific locale, inbreeding will be necessary to build up numbers. However, with ten individuals, say 5 males and 5 females, one could avoid having to inbreed for quite a few generations.
If we lose the environment in which these reptiles live, then we will also lose all of the other organism that live in that environment. That loss of biodiversity is of far more concern then the loss of the reptile component. Loss of biodiversity is the single greatest threat to the continued existence of humans on this planet.
Having people hit the panic button for the wrong reasons will not engender sensible change. Provide a fuller understanding of the ecological issues facing human kind and you should get a more constructive response. People need to oppose the present government’s intentions to allow continuation of clear fell logging along the disputed delineating border. People need to oppose the natural gas plant at Abbott’s Point which require dredging within the Barrier Reef World Heritage area. This is essential to stop now!
The solutions to the planet’s environmental problems are complex, difficult to enact and vary with each individual environment. Many of the solutions are not even known and much research into many of the problems is required if we are to find solutions. I can tell you that having a collection of life forms in glass cases is NOT a solution. It simply does not function as an interactive web of life and you will never be able to ‘bottle’ the biodiversity of even the most simple of ecological
Human existence depends on biodiversity. From bacteria and fungi to primitive plants to grasses, flowering annuals and perennials, to shrubs and trees. From worms and other invertebrates and microbes in the soil, to insects that pollinate and provide food for small invertebrates, to medium and large invertebrates used as food, for products and to d work. It is a lot more complex that the thumb nail outline above. The bottom line is the need to maintain biodiversity in order for humans to survive. Every cut into the planet’s remaining biodiversity is pushing the human race that much closer to extinction.
We need to get out there and find out what is happening with our environment now! And hopefully then be able to dsmething about it. So volunteering to help collect data, run surveys, try and slow down cane toad advances, put up car warning signs for various wildlife, educate others what needs to be done now – these are things that will really help!
Blue
Now for a few simple realities....
Removing animals form the wild stops natural selection from operating. So the population produced as a result of captive breeding will differ from the population in the wild under going natural selection. This is why ‘breed and release’ programs begin their releases after only a few generations of captive breeding (to build up numbers).
If you have one male and one female from a specific locale, inbreeding will be necessary to build up numbers. However, with ten individuals, say 5 males and 5 females, one could avoid having to inbreed for quite a few generations.
If we lose the environment in which these reptiles live, then we will also lose all of the other organism that live in that environment. That loss of biodiversity is of far more concern then the loss of the reptile component. Loss of biodiversity is the single greatest threat to the continued existence of humans on this planet.
Having people hit the panic button for the wrong reasons will not engender sensible change. Provide a fuller understanding of the ecological issues facing human kind and you should get a more constructive response. People need to oppose the present government’s intentions to allow continuation of clear fell logging along the disputed delineating border. People need to oppose the natural gas plant at Abbott’s Point which require dredging within the Barrier Reef World Heritage area. This is essential to stop now!
The solutions to the planet’s environmental problems are complex, difficult to enact and vary with each individual environment. Many of the solutions are not even known and much research into many of the problems is required if we are to find solutions. I can tell you that having a collection of life forms in glass cases is NOT a solution. It simply does not function as an interactive web of life and you will never be able to ‘bottle’ the biodiversity of even the most simple of ecological
Human existence depends on biodiversity. From bacteria and fungi to primitive plants to grasses, flowering annuals and perennials, to shrubs and trees. From worms and other invertebrates and microbes in the soil, to insects that pollinate and provide food for small invertebrates, to medium and large invertebrates used as food, for products and to d work. It is a lot more complex that the thumb nail outline above. The bottom line is the need to maintain biodiversity in order for humans to survive. Every cut into the planet’s remaining biodiversity is pushing the human race that much closer to extinction.
We need to get out there and find out what is happening with our environment now! And hopefully then be able to dsmething about it. So volunteering to help collect data, run surveys, try and slow down cane toad advances, put up car warning signs for various wildlife, educate others what needs to be done now – these are things that will really help!
Blue
andynic07
Very Well-Known Member
You are right but I chose coastals because they are something that I have seen many times so I could talk actual experience and have noticed big variations in. Maybe [MENTION=4778]cement[/MENTION] could weigh back in on this discussion with the years of experience of field herping he would have certainly seen many variations of different species and may be able to give us a feel for if there is such a thing as a text book locality animal.
Sean_L
Not so new Member
Firstly, on the notion of “purist” there is no definition with respect to reptile breeding. Secondly, artificial of any kind is not the same as natural selection which happens in the wild.
Of course no-one is claiming it is. Were going for the closer the better I believe.
Now for a few simple realities....
Removing animals form the wild stops natural selection from operating. So the population produced as a result of captive breeding will differ from the population in the wild under going natural selection. This is why ‘breed and release’ programs begin their releases after only a few generations of captive breeding (to build up numbers).
Understood. I fully agree. But once again, something as close as possible is better than nothing, IMO
If you have one male and one female from a specific locale, inbreeding will be necessary to build up numbers. However, with ten individuals, say 5 males and 5 females, one could avoid having to inbreed for quite a few generations.
Agreed. This would be necessary. Mutual involvement from a number of keepers with the same locailty would help this also.
If we lose the environment in which these reptiles live, then we will also lose all of the other organism that live in that environment. That loss of biodiversity is of far more concern then the loss of the reptile component. Loss of biodiversity is the single greatest threat to the continued existence of humans on this planet.
Also, understood. But this is a reptile forum. Thats the main topic of this discussion. Although that doesnt make your point any less true. Hopefully the entomology forum and the ornithology forum, etc can all come together at some point.
Having people hit the panic button for the wrong reasons will not engender sensible change. Provide a fuller understanding of the ecological issues facing human kind and you should get a more constructive response. People need to oppose the present government’s intentions to allow continuation of clear fell logging along the disputed delineating border. People need to oppose the natural gas plant at Abbott’s Point which require dredging within the Barrier Reef World Heritage area. This is essential to stop now!
This is where I disagree. Weve been politely telling people to clean up their act and attempting invain to gently educate people on environmental importance. I propose a new strategy. Something more dramatic. Thats only my opinion however.
Everything else in that paragraph though....thumbs up %110.
The solutions to the planet’s environmental problems are complex, difficult to enact and vary with each individual environment. Many of the solutions are not even known and much research into many of the problems is required if we are to find solutions. I can tell you that having a collection of life forms in glass cases is NOT a solution. It simply does not function as an interactive web of life and you will never be able to ‘bottle’ the biodiversity of even the most simple of ecological
As i said ealier, I dont see the captive preservation of species in a preventative manner. Merely insurance for the species involved. My honest belief is that regardless of ANY action, there will inevitably be a majority of species lost. Theres just too many individual habitat types to protect them all. Especially while Abbott attempts to negate the Heritage Listing defensive line completely. I feel a live specimen in the future is better than nothing.
But of course that doesnt lessen the need for action besides this.
Human existence depends on biodiversity. From bacteria and fungi to primitive plants to grasses, flowering annuals and perennials, to shrubs and trees. From worms and other invertebrates and microbes in the soil, to insects that pollinate and provide food for small invertebrates, to medium and large invertebrates used as food, for products and to d work. It is a lot more complex that the thumb nail outline above. The bottom line is the need to maintain biodiversity in order for humans to survive. Every cut into the planet’s remaining biodiversity is pushing the human race that much closer to extinction.
We need to get out there and find out what is happening with our environment now! And hopefully then be able to dsmething about it. So volunteering to help collect data, run surveys, try and slow down cane toad advances, put up car warning signs for various wildlife, educate others what needs to be done now – these are things that will really help!
All true. I agree. The more who are involved the more that can be achieved.
Blue
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Heres some examples of Southern Spotted Velvet Geckos, Oedura tryoni. I have some of these that hail from around Gympie region. They look different to each of these, as each of these looks different to the next. This is jst an example, however.
This sandy coast example has much fewer spots than any other Southern Spotted Velvet gecko form Im familiar with (RP haha)
This Girraween individual has much darker colouration and many more spots. It lives around granite outcrops
Finally heres an example from MT Glorious. It has less regular spotting and MUCH greater levels of yellow. (High Yellow, perhaps?) I can attest that the general majority from MT Glorious all look like this, just as those from Giraween all look similar to the pic above.
Ive not seen them around Fraser, but thought Id add the first photo as I know its location and its a nice example of variation in the same species.
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As I said, just an example to get the ball rolling. If you showed me an individual from any of these areas, I would be (with reasonable certainty) able to tell you which of the 4 areas (including gympie) it originates from. Of course, other locales could look quite similar to these here and so that would confuse the issue. Im not an expert on all of tryoni's various forms though, hence this is just an example.
Of course no-one is claiming it is. Were going for the closer the better I believe.
Now for a few simple realities....
Removing animals form the wild stops natural selection from operating. So the population produced as a result of captive breeding will differ from the population in the wild under going natural selection. This is why ‘breed and release’ programs begin their releases after only a few generations of captive breeding (to build up numbers).
Understood. I fully agree. But once again, something as close as possible is better than nothing, IMO
If you have one male and one female from a specific locale, inbreeding will be necessary to build up numbers. However, with ten individuals, say 5 males and 5 females, one could avoid having to inbreed for quite a few generations.
Agreed. This would be necessary. Mutual involvement from a number of keepers with the same locailty would help this also.
If we lose the environment in which these reptiles live, then we will also lose all of the other organism that live in that environment. That loss of biodiversity is of far more concern then the loss of the reptile component. Loss of biodiversity is the single greatest threat to the continued existence of humans on this planet.
Also, understood. But this is a reptile forum. Thats the main topic of this discussion. Although that doesnt make your point any less true. Hopefully the entomology forum and the ornithology forum, etc can all come together at some point.
Having people hit the panic button for the wrong reasons will not engender sensible change. Provide a fuller understanding of the ecological issues facing human kind and you should get a more constructive response. People need to oppose the present government’s intentions to allow continuation of clear fell logging along the disputed delineating border. People need to oppose the natural gas plant at Abbott’s Point which require dredging within the Barrier Reef World Heritage area. This is essential to stop now!
This is where I disagree. Weve been politely telling people to clean up their act and attempting invain to gently educate people on environmental importance. I propose a new strategy. Something more dramatic. Thats only my opinion however.
Everything else in that paragraph though....thumbs up %110.
The solutions to the planet’s environmental problems are complex, difficult to enact and vary with each individual environment. Many of the solutions are not even known and much research into many of the problems is required if we are to find solutions. I can tell you that having a collection of life forms in glass cases is NOT a solution. It simply does not function as an interactive web of life and you will never be able to ‘bottle’ the biodiversity of even the most simple of ecological
As i said ealier, I dont see the captive preservation of species in a preventative manner. Merely insurance for the species involved. My honest belief is that regardless of ANY action, there will inevitably be a majority of species lost. Theres just too many individual habitat types to protect them all. Especially while Abbott attempts to negate the Heritage Listing defensive line completely. I feel a live specimen in the future is better than nothing.
But of course that doesnt lessen the need for action besides this.
Human existence depends on biodiversity. From bacteria and fungi to primitive plants to grasses, flowering annuals and perennials, to shrubs and trees. From worms and other invertebrates and microbes in the soil, to insects that pollinate and provide food for small invertebrates, to medium and large invertebrates used as food, for products and to d work. It is a lot more complex that the thumb nail outline above. The bottom line is the need to maintain biodiversity in order for humans to survive. Every cut into the planet’s remaining biodiversity is pushing the human race that much closer to extinction.
We need to get out there and find out what is happening with our environment now! And hopefully then be able to dsmething about it. So volunteering to help collect data, run surveys, try and slow down cane toad advances, put up car warning signs for various wildlife, educate others what needs to be done now – these are things that will really help!
All true. I agree. The more who are involved the more that can be achieved.
Blue
- - - Updated - - -
Heres some examples of Southern Spotted Velvet Geckos, Oedura tryoni. I have some of these that hail from around Gympie region. They look different to each of these, as each of these looks different to the next. This is jst an example, however.
This sandy coast example has much fewer spots than any other Southern Spotted Velvet gecko form Im familiar with (RP haha)
This Girraween individual has much darker colouration and many more spots. It lives around granite outcrops
Finally heres an example from MT Glorious. It has less regular spotting and MUCH greater levels of yellow. (High Yellow, perhaps?) I can attest that the general majority from MT Glorious all look like this, just as those from Giraween all look similar to the pic above.
Ive not seen them around Fraser, but thought Id add the first photo as I know its location and its a nice example of variation in the same species.
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As I said, just an example to get the ball rolling. If you showed me an individual from any of these areas, I would be (with reasonable certainty) able to tell you which of the 4 areas (including gympie) it originates from. Of course, other locales could look quite similar to these here and so that would confuse the issue. Im not an expert on all of tryoni's various forms though, hence this is just an example.
Agreed bluetongue which is why I tried to explain my interpretation of a definition. As there is no real definition everyone will have a different idea of what it means.
yep it doesn't matter what we save if there is nowhere for it to go back to. Questions about what is pure, what is a good representation are all meaningless if there is nowhere for a species to go back to. Keeping a species alive in captivity when it has no chance of surviving back in its original habitat has no benefit except to make us feel better. It's already functionally extinct.
If we fix the causes of decline then there is a chance.
IMO the current government cares nothing about the environment but there haven't been any recently that really do. This filters down to areas like national parks etc through varying means. In queensland as far as conservation is concerned it has become a bit of a joke in many respects although I am sure there are areas where good outcomes are being seen.
There are plenty of NP employees who are passionate about what they do, would love to make a difference and often do but when your budget gets stripped year after year until you are almost running on empty its pushing the proverbial up a hill. Focuses change as well due to limited budgets so if an area is doing well funding can be moved to somewhere else. Inevitably this just causes the good areas to degrade as well.
Locally there are numerous efforts that were undertaken that aren't anymore. Feral pest removal, invasive weed removal, maintainence of fire breaks etc protecting key areas no longer occur when 10 years ago they were the norm. I have actually enquired what would be involved in getting permission to volunteer in invasive weed removal at a local national park and been told no chance. They would never give permission for it. Same goes for trapping feral cats.
As you mentioned bluetongue the issue is much broader and seemingly small decisions in one area can have huge impacts for a large area.
yep it doesn't matter what we save if there is nowhere for it to go back to. Questions about what is pure, what is a good representation are all meaningless if there is nowhere for a species to go back to. Keeping a species alive in captivity when it has no chance of surviving back in its original habitat has no benefit except to make us feel better. It's already functionally extinct.
If we fix the causes of decline then there is a chance.
IMO the current government cares nothing about the environment but there haven't been any recently that really do. This filters down to areas like national parks etc through varying means. In queensland as far as conservation is concerned it has become a bit of a joke in many respects although I am sure there are areas where good outcomes are being seen.
There are plenty of NP employees who are passionate about what they do, would love to make a difference and often do but when your budget gets stripped year after year until you are almost running on empty its pushing the proverbial up a hill. Focuses change as well due to limited budgets so if an area is doing well funding can be moved to somewhere else. Inevitably this just causes the good areas to degrade as well.
Locally there are numerous efforts that were undertaken that aren't anymore. Feral pest removal, invasive weed removal, maintainence of fire breaks etc protecting key areas no longer occur when 10 years ago they were the norm. I have actually enquired what would be involved in getting permission to volunteer in invasive weed removal at a local national park and been told no chance. They would never give permission for it. Same goes for trapping feral cats.
As you mentioned bluetongue the issue is much broader and seemingly small decisions in one area can have huge impacts for a large area.
humba_jumba
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how would you pick the rough scaled pythons??? They look very similar to me... Just a thought and I don't know how accurate it is however wouldn't getting the best representation of a locale include finding the older animals in that area??? or the originals??? Especially with certain species you would think that there would be all sorts of different colours and patterning not so much one specific looking snake... Sharp colours, muddy colours, striping, reduced pattern, a lot of them wouldn't be any less locale because it looks different... unless someone has introduced another locale into an area... Just my thoughts...
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