Cape York's - Jungles or Coastals?

[derekm]

Waterrat & Serpentes - Thanks for the clarification on Hoser's work. I'll look harder for more of Rawlings and Donnellan's work. Their work on Morelia virdis is easy to find but I have been unable to find anything at that level of detail on Morelia spilota.

 

[derekm]

Cutting through all the academic species stance, it doesn’t matter if DNA benchmarks set by scientists tell the reptile keeping community that a jungle carpet is the same species as a diamond python or not because even a three 3 year child could tell you that they look different and the majority of keepers and dealers will always split them, and for good reason. Could it be that the scientists are the ones who are behind the eight ball simply because current science isn’t yet good enough to identify the genetic material differences that make a diamond python or a Jungle carpet. Even if scientific knowledge one day does get clever enough, I have to wonder if those benchmarks whatever they are, will change and we see more sub-species recognised.

That's a fairly under-appreciative standpoint! You'll likely see less subspecies recognised in the future with advances in classification allowing the eradication of splitters who just like to name things because they look different.

A three year old child's viewpoint on taxonomy "because they look different" is, sadly, about the level that many reptile keepers attain regarding biological processes, and will not further our understanding of ecology and evolution.

I think we could consider adopting the same approach as is taken with dogs and cats. Simplistically, scientists discuss variations in terms of species, sub-species, populations, genetic variation, gene pools, etc while the breeder/keeper community discusses variations in terms of breed standards. If we apply that approach to the jungle python, scientists would discuss it in terms of a distinctive population within a species and the extent of its genetic isolation from other populations, while the breeder/keeper community would discuss it in terms of breed standards related to appearance and/or the locality of the founder population.

The dog and cat people have a few hundred years of head start on us, so the adoption of this approach may take a while. However, I see the beginnings of it in the USA, probably because they have no other effective way of dealing with their much greater range of morphs than we have.

 

[TahneeMaree]

Probably a very noob question... but why not just call them a Cape York Carpet Python? Like the Darwin Carpet Python... this "are they a jungle or are they a coastal" question thrown into debate the actuall differences between the different carpet pythons... from my understanding the only differences are the size they get to on average and the markings? I've been told that the scale counts are the same?(aside from Bredli) I'm just going on tid bits of info I've been told and conversations I have witnessed so please no flaming if it's entirely noobish... I'm here to soak up the info and become a better herper...

 

[JasonL]

Probably a very noob question... but why not just call them a Cape York Carpet Python? Like the Darwin Carpet Python... this "are they a jungle or are they a coastal" question thrown into debate the actuall differences between the different carpet pythons... from my understanding the only differences are the size they get to on average and the markings? I've been told that the scale counts are the same?(aside from Bredli) I'm just going on tid bits of info I've been told and conversations I have witnessed so please no flaming if it's entirely noobish... I'm here to soak up the info and become a better herper...

Because a true Jungle is a very different animal to a Capey (by looks and even prefered habitat), which is more like a croass between a Darwin and a coastal... funny enough it's in the middle ... To put it in layman's terms, there are various differnt coloured and sized carpets along the east / north coast of Aust, each having their own traits... but they all verge into one another and us humans can't make up our minds where to draw the lines, or whether in fact we should have lines at all!

 

[Waterrat]

Obviously, there is no simple solution that would make everybody happy. There is nothing wrong with calling the sub-species / morphs / types whatever we like as long as we realise that it has nothing to do with herpetology (as science). What saddens me, is the ever increasing gap between herpetology and these new trends within the "reptile keeping hobby". Oh yes, we are heading the USA way, no doubt about it. I am not critical of it but don't ask scientists for help or explanations if you're rejecting or not acknowledging their point of view.

 

[Hemiaspis]

Derekm, Hoser lives in his own little world of bull.... and no one listens to him any more. He discredited himself with his "smuggler" antics and his sloppy, amateur taxonomy is not any better. As Serpentes said, he has been ignored and I am afraid he always will be because some damage he has done is just irreparable. I can't comment on the content of his work because I don't read it any more.

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

Very wise words

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Best topic in months. I can't understand why all the big locality breeders are not having more of their opinion in this thread? Maybe its because they know that deep down, the herpetologists are really the ones in the know. You have to venture into the world of herpetology and leave the sanctity of your computer screen. Thanks for voicing an opinion in a scientific manner! Its the first time I have seen you voice your opinion so clearly.

 

[ShaneBlack]

Is there such a thing as a "big locality breeder"? I breed a few Cape Yorks, and thats what i call them, Cape Yorks. I leave it to the buyer to call them jungle or coastal.

The reason being, one....i dont really care either way, i'm not that into carpets to start with... And two....As i didnt personally catch my original stock, i cant say with 100% accuracy what they are. I can only sell them as what they were originally given to me years ago.

There will never be an answer to the jungle/coastal debate that will satisfy everyone.

 

[Waterrat]

" Even if scientific knowledge one day does get clever enough, I have to wonder if those benchmarks whatever they are, will change and we see more sub-species recognised."

Dave, I regard you as a very knowledgeable expert in your field and I know that you have learned a lot from your own experiences and observations. However, to correctly interpret observations and experiences, one needs some in-depth basic knowledge on the subject. I assume you have learned (like many of us) herpetological / ecological principles from papers, books and other literature - who wrote those papers and books? .... Shine, Cogger, Ehman, Wilson, D. Wilson, Greer, Heatwole, Covacevich, et al.
Herp forums such as this one are great but they are no substitute for the real thing. Unfortunately, many prefer to pop their question on a forum (and get answer from those with opinion on everything) rather than reading and broadening their knowledge from those who spent their lifetimes studying reptiles. Surely, you would agree with me on that one.

 

[Serpentes]

I'm sticking with this for now:

View attachment Pythonphylogeneticclades.doc

-note that 'Morelia' viridis is a divergence from Antaresia, not Morelia! Bring back Chondropython. Chondropython carinata has a nice ring to it.

No idea of the Morelia "subspecies" systematics. But it is clear that bredli is it's own thing. Maybe it got stuck in the desert a long, long time ago and never met carpets linking to the coastal fringe. As such M.s. imbricata would likely also be diversifying. M.s.cheynei may be a dwindling rainforest relic restricted to rainforests that were once more widespread (and certainly not contemporary M.s.mcdowelli habitat), still just hanging onto the core of its habitat after once being very widespread. Yet all the while being encroached by, and intergrading with the more competitive mcdowelli along ecotones? Time will tell

 

[derekm]

I'm sticking with this for now:

View attachment 105483

Thank you very much for the cladogram and your thoughts on Morelia. As well as being interesting in its own right, it has now led me to the full document. (It's at http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/909.pdf for anyone else that's interested). I have some studying to do!

 

[ihaveherps]

Obviously, there is no simple solution that would make everybody happy. There is nothing wrong with calling the sub-species / morphs / types whatever we like as long as we realise that it has nothing to do with herpetology (as science). What saddens me, is the ever increasing gap between herpetology and these new trends within the "reptile keeping hobby". Oh yes, we are heading the USA way, no doubt about it. I am not critical of it but don't ask scientists for help or explanations if you're rejecting or not acknowledging their point of view.

I really dont see how accepting or rejecting this new break up, furthers the amateur keepers from the scientic side of herpetology, as undoubtedly, there are several factions within the scientific community that reject this latest paper as well. Taxonomy is a bit of a joke really, and to accept this latest offering as finite gospel, foolish. The smart money would be on dozens of reclassifications before science will be in a position to come up with a perfect model to apply the genetic data collected during the course of this paper. Mark my words, in our lifetimes, this paper will be rendered obselete.

 

[derekm]

I really dont see how accepting or rejecting this new break up, furthers the amateur keepers from the scientic side of herpetology, as undoubtedly, there are several factions within the scientific community that reject this latest paper as well. Taxonomy is a bit of a joke really, and to accept this latest offering as finite gospel, foolish. The smart money would be on dozens of reclassifications before science will be in a position to come up with a perfect model to apply the genetic data collected during the course of this paper. Mark my words, in our lifetimes, this paper will be rendered obselete.

In my view, it isn't a matter of accepting or rejecting any particular view. The important point is that amateur keepers (including me) should understand how that view was developed from the available evidence if we want to have a reasonable grasp of the scientific underpinnings of our hobby. This isn't a requirement for being an amateur keeper, but does enrich the hobby for those who are interested. As you say, neither this, nor any other paper, is the final word. However, because it is a scientifically credible current word, it is useful information, as are all of the dissenting papers - at least to the extent that they have survived peer review to be published in reputable journals. I'm not after "final gospel" because I don't think it exists in theory or in practice. All I'm looking for is an understanding of the issues and current interpretations of the available evidence.

My problem is that I am not in a position to do original research, nor do I have ready access to scientific journals. I therefore appreciate the assistance of those who do have such access in pointing me towards credible and accessible papers, and away from suspect material.

 

[Serpentes]

Obsolete is such a strong word. How about redundant? No, wait, invalid, um, no, inaccurate sounds better. I hope there's more advances in systematics, because we don't know much about many species. At least there are absolute legends like Dave Chapple and Conrad Hoskin doing superb research. It light of this, we should broaden our taxonomic debates to include some obscure skink genera, that's where the action is- not in the boring old "what is Morelia?"

IAll I'm looking for is an understanding of the issues and current interpretations of the available evidence...
...I therefore appreciate the assistance of those who do have such access in pointing me towards credible and accessible papers, and away from suspect material.

Derek I may be able to help out,if you would like PDF files of any papers please don't hesitate to PM me. I would need do this via email.

 

[Bushfire]

Im glad that L.fuscus was used for Australian Water pythons! I totally refused to use L.mackloti no matter what lol.

 

[Serpentes]

Im glad that L.fuscus was used for Australian Water pythons! I totally refused to use L.mackloti no matter what lol.

:lol: I hate calling M. kinghorni that, I preferred amethystina. Not to mention any of Hosers names! Damn, you, emotional name hangups!

 

[JasonL]

emotional?? I just don't have the memory for name changes.....