Carpet Python Genetics

[Nome]

Neil, I think you'll find it was me that said that about 3 years ago...I do have my own opinions on it :wink:

And as you said, the Antaresia group is one that is very much tainted, whether knowingly or not. That is why I mentioned that more people are going to source from wild caught animals, it's very hard for the average person to note the difference if it is even visible.

 

[NCHERPS]

Neil, I think you'll find it was me that said that about 3 years ago...I do have my own opinions on it :wink:

Sorry Nome, I didn't Mean to get you mixed up ! LOL!

Cheers Neil

 

[Nome]

No problem

 

[NCHERPS]

I believe that in the past people have palmed off there crosses because they knew that they wouldn't be able to get much for them if they told the truth, but nowadays that mentality has changed alot, and 5 years from now people will be alot more honest, as there snakes will be worth the same as the pures, if not more to the right people.
NSW NPWS are not burrowing their heads into the sand, and have last year placed alot more crosses onto the keepers list, they take the path, that it's going to happen, so they would rather know about it and allow people to be honest about it.(There not condoning it , but not condeming it either).
It can only be good, as then hopefully more will be honest when they sell there offspring.

 

[Moreliaman]

Moreliaman, I am a pure stock keeper, how could you tell? lol

Just a wild guess mate !! :wink:

how long can we honestly expect that everyone in the chain will have ethics.

But you'll get this in everything, theres always the odd percentage who are lying swines !! ....but the xbreeding is happening now with dog/cats/birds/fish etc that breeders claim to be pure but they arent !!!!
A friend told me he'd bought "wild guppies" from the aquatics shop down the road, they were actually "endlers livebearers" but the shop had them labled up as "wild guppies" !

I am enjoying the civil debate with Moreliaman...

AHHHHH but how do you know im not arguing with you ?? :wink: :lol:

 

[Moreliaman]

personally i would have thought it being a good thing as the xbreeds would releive some of the demand of pure stock, thus being left for the serious herpers who wish to concentrate their efforts in keeping/breeding/selling pure local stock!
dunno if that makes any sence now !! :lol:

 

[hugsta]

The reason most people aren't honest when selling hybrids is the ear bashing they get on forums like this. There was a thread not long ago by someone selling crossbred animals and he got hammered for it to the point the 'for sale' thread got locked. Here is someone doing the right thing by telling someone and those 'purists' hammered him for it. You wonder why people don't want to advertise what the animal truely is.

Ans as for the arguement of impure lines getting into purists collections, well surely the purist would only be dealing with other purists who will only be dealing with other purists etc etc.

I know I will be keeping my animals as pure breeds and will not be crossing, however, if the opportunity to own a pair of Jags or some other cross came my way that were equally stunning, I would snatch them up without hesitation and I would breed them. That doesn't mean I would put my pure animals over them, as I certainly wouldn't, I do like locality specific animals but I believe there is romm for both. As long as we don't crucify those that are crossing animals there is no reason why they shouldn't be honest.

 

[pugsly]

I'm with you Huggy.

 

[Nagraj]

The reason most people aren't honest when selling hybrids is the ear bashing they get on forums like this.

Sorry, but I simply don't buy that.

The number of breeders who have anything to do with fora like this are a minority.

Any particular clutch has a wide distribution of colour variables and those that look most like a pure parent will no doubt be sold as such by some breeders because they will sell more easily.

 

[hugsta]

"Any particular clutch has a wide distribution of colour variables and those that look most like a pure parent will no doubt be sold as such by some breeders because they will sell more easily."

Exactly my point. They don't advertise them as what they are because they get condemmed for it and also people buying them are now hesitant as there is a stigma that is attached to it, which, depending on whos eyes you are looking through, may or may not be deserved.

No different to a natural integrade, they are naturally occuring snake, not a cross, not a hybrid, not an integrade as such, but due to the name, it has a stigma and therefore they are not seen as being as valuable as diamond, although they are just as nice an animal IMO.

 

[Nagraj]

They don't advertise them as what they are because they get condemmed for it and also people buying them are now hesitant as there is a stigma that is attached to it, which, depending on whos eyes you are looking through, may or may not be deserved.

Again I disagree.

Let's say there are 15 from a clutch, 10 of which closely resemble either of the pure parents. If you try to sell the 10 as hybrids nobody will be interested as they aren't unique but the local pet shop will take all 10 at a wholesale price, as purebreds, without knowing any better. Then you're still left with the 5 more unique hatchlings to make a good profit from as hybrids by selling them here.

 

[indicus]

The study in which jungles and coastals share the same genetic make up etc.......
This may very well be true, how would i know?, i'm just a keeper -with this in mind....
I can only surmise that the two are quite different; which in my mind separates them.
Apart from the obvious; size colour etc "general behavioural differences", may help separate them...IMO.
Now imagine the jungle hanging from the perch on the prod; classic jungle pose.
Then look at the coastal 1 / 3 out of it's box.... in waiting...Sounds simple enough; generally speaking.
To complicate the matter; now add colour, size, and food intake into the picture..
For example: One finds he/she has a jungle that displays obvious differences in over all behaviour; general size, colour and larger then average food intake........whether it's a captive animal or not; i'd tend to think its origins are closer to a coastal etc in make up rather then a jungle.....
A guess none the less; but not without the obvious taken into account......did i get it right???
Want to confuse me more?......throw a bredli over it, darwin etc etc.....pretty soon i dont know what i've got.; thats what i believe will be/ is the problem.....total chaos!!!
The real purist is left with one possible solution.......buy off licenced collector; how else will you know? :shock: , take the breeders word for it? :shock: ......For most of us; we can only try.... :?
But to call yourself a 'purist'....... you can only be as pure as your stock.
Please forgive my ramblings..... :?

 

[Moreliaman]

not ramblings at all !! we need good stuff like this to read .......whilst we all work away in our drug dens to pay the eletric bill !! :lol:

 

[Hickson]

I hate to take evryone away from the hybrid debate that we all so lo9ve to get stuck into periodically, but I have some knowledge of the study that Boa was referring to. I'm just sorry I wasn't online yesterday, otherwise I would have posted before now.

Duncan Taylor is a PhD student. One of his supervisors is Steve Donnellan. I spoke to Donellan a few months ago, specifically about this paper. The presentation back in 2003 was a 15 minute presentation on what they had found so far. That's why it was never published, it had nothing to do with peer review.

Taylor has taken samples from more than 600 snakes. The DNA needs to be extracted and analysed and that takes time (if you've ever watched CSI or NCIS you know this takes more than a few minutes). I haven't been in a genetics lab for a few years, Sdaji is probably in a better position to tell you how long it would take to get just one sample done. And they're not doing just one test - they are looking at microsatellites and allozyme electrophoresis.

The study is now complete, and the analysis of the 600+ results is also complete (and the analysis would take as long as the testing, if not longer).

Donellan says that there are 4 papers currently being written as a result of this study. The first - and most important - is Taylors PhD thesis. That takes priority. Two other papers, referring to the thesis, will subsequently be published. The final paper will refer to the preceding three, and is the one we are waiting for, and will be published around the end of the year (or maybe in the new year).

Obviously, I asked about the results. In a nutshell, the genetics identify M.bredli and M.imbricata as distinct from M.spilota, which we all expected. However, the genetics of M.spilota were diverse. All characteristics they were investigating were found in all subspecies and throughout the range. Certain genes were more predominant in some subspecies, but there were no autopomorphies for any subspecies. Most importantly, he said that by looking at a DNA sequence there was no way they could predict what the phenotype would look like (i.e. the snakes pattern). For those reasons, they don't believe that the subspecies are justified. That includes the Diamond Python.

He also said that he believes the Green Tree Python should be in the genus Chondropython, and will probably move back there soon.



HIx

 

[NCHERPS]

Interesting stuff Hix, thanks for letting us all know.
Yes, Alot of people have been stating the same in regards Chondropython, most people always refered to them as such anyway, so not much to change there in the hobbiest's mindset.

Neil

 

[Retic]

Thanks Hix, very interesting and exactly what I was looking for. Not such an odd thread after all :lol:
I'm not quite sure where this thread sort of morphed into a hybrid thread but it has been interesting none the less.

 

[ad]

There was apparently a recent study that showed the Jungle and Coastal Carpet share the exact same genetic make up so are in fact the same species. Does any have anymore information on this study, eg links to it ?
If this is the case does that mean the names cheynei and mcdowelli are redundant and crossbreeding isn't in fact an issue ? I have no interest in crossing them but it does seem like a very important piece of news especially considering the laws up here in Queensland.
I apologise if this has already been posted.

Boa - you ask the question in your original post re: crossing a cheyni with a mcdowelli.
This is a hybrid question. Why do you think it is not? :roll:

The fact that in 2003 they had tested 350 snakes - they have tested an extra 150 in the last 3 years and still havent published a paper.
How soon before their findings change our record books? if ever?
So back to your original question - in the short term it will not effect qld legislation, if ever.

Even if you justify the legalities of hybrid breeding in qld - you will never justify the morals. I have still yet to see 1 positive to hybrid breeding and never had my negatives to it challanged.

Go and breed your hybrids - dont think you can have a bet each way and breed hybrids and pures.
If i hatch an albino jungle - people will believe it
If you hatch an albino jungle - your credibility will be on the line - guaranteed.

'Trust Me' is a great sales pitch.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

You have to wonder what reptiles or where they have taken blood from in so called jungles. Considering many people are passing of Athertons as jungles which are different in size, coloration, temperament., and look closer to a coastal carpet than does the miniature jungle form. I would wonder if this would have any bearing on the genetic results being obscured. I haven't ever heard of blood samples taken from wild jungles in Innisfail, lower Palmerston,Babinda. by any one analyzing or looking at DNA. That not to say they haven't but I have to wonder.

 

[Moreliaman]

thanks for that Hix, sounds like they'll be a rush for that paper when its released! :wink:

 

[PilbaraPythons]

After reading Hix's post it sounds like it wouldn't have made much difference either way.