Carpet Python Genetics

[Hickson]

Bob,

According to what one of the authors told me, while there is enormous genetic variance with spilota, it does not differentiate between the currently recognised subspecies.

And from what I've been told by a prominent herpetologist, this fits with one of the authors who doesn't like the concept of 'subspecies'.



Hix

 

[TrueBlue]

thank you bigguy, you hit the nail on the head with my understanding of it all.

 

[Retic]

I don't think there is any question that Jungles for instance are considered a 'subspecies', I think the point is that they are not separated on a genetic level which is the point I have made from the start.
As Hugsta pointed out this will have to bring about a change in law up here, either that or the EPA will have to turn a blind eye to any snakes produced within the spilota species.
Obviously individual snakes are different genetically but on a species level they are more or less identical or at least close enough to not warrant separate staus.

Bob, from what I understand NSW NPWS allocate a number for any hybrid produced, is this the case ?

 

[NCHERPS]

I don't think there is any question that Jungles for instance are considered a 'subspecies', I think the point is that they are not separated on a genetic level which is the point I have made from the start.
As Hugsta pointed out this will have to bring about a change in law up here, either that or the EPA will have to turn a blind eye to any snakes produced within the spilota species.
Obviously individual snakes are different genetically but on a species level they are more or less identical or at least close enough to not warrant separate staus.

Boa,
As a few others have stated, there are many state NPWS dept's doing there own thing in relation to rules and reg's, including the one in relation to deliberately breeding different subspecies/species.
I wouldn't get excited anytime soon, as the wheels of red tape and paperwork are slow.
Also, remember that just because a couple of individuals have written a paper, doesn't mean it will be accepted by Goverment officials, unless challenged in the courts(Which would cost a fortune) it might just never happen.
I would like to think that within a few years they might just turn a blind eye, but they may be pig headed about actually saying it is now ok in QLD, go ahead and produce your Intergrades/hybrids. You may have to move to NSW! LOL!

Neil

 

[NCHERPS]

I don't think there is any question that Jungles for instance are considered a 'subspecies', I think the point is that they are not separated on a genetic level which is the point I have made from the start.

Maybe not on a genetic level, but they are on a phenotype level, which will probably be enough for most to keep the subspecies names in place.

Neil

 

[Stevo]

Has anyone in Qld ever been charged or fined for crossing said pythons?

 

[Retic]

Neil, don't worry I'm not getting excited at all it wont affect me one way or the other but I am sure there will be plenty of people keeping an eye on proceedings.
As far as moving to NSW, do you really think things will get THAT bad ? :lol:

 

[Retic]

Not that I am aware of.

Has anyone in Qld ever been charged or fined for crossing said pythons?

 

[flavirufus]

this fits with one of the authors who doesn't like the concept of 'subspecies'

This is a key. The senior author is reluctant to recognise subspecies. This is primarily because there are no robust concepts of what constitutes a sub-species. We need to remember that 'species' and 'sub-species' are human constructs and don't necessarily fit neatly into what's happening in the natural world. Neither the carpet study, nor the GTP study (which were both done in the same lab) recognised new sub-species, but they both identified new 'species'.

In my opinion, the most interesting fact to come out of the study is that imbricata is distinct enough to warrant full species status. Beyond that, its not telling us anything new, except that its hard to split the rest of the spilota forms (which we pretty much knew anyway). However, having seen the actual paper (sorry, the draft is not available for distribution and I don't know when its due to be published) it's apparent to me that there are a number of genetically different 'forms' of spilota. These may not warrant sub-specific status (because how do you define a sub-species anyway) but are none-the-less worthy, in my opinion, of being acknowledged as being 'a bit different'. Certainly, as a keeper and an appreciator of locality specifics, I'll be acknowledging them as such.

Matt
http://www.users.on.net/~jbonnett/

 

[Magpie]

However, having seen the actual paper (sorry, the draft is not available for distribution and I don't know when its due to be published) it's apparent to me that there are a number of genetically different 'forms' of spilota. These may not warrant sub-specific status (because how do you define a sub-species anyway) but are none-the-less worthy, in my opinion, of being acknowledged as being 'a bit different'. Certainly, as a keeper and an appreciator of locality specifics, I'll be acknowledging them as such.

Matt

This is pretty much my point. We go off at someone who crosses two snakes bacause they are "subspecies" but we never stop to question whether our concept is correct. Look at Stimmies, there is every bit as much variation in them as in spilota, yet the only two subspecies are poorly described and ignored. There are stimmies that only grow to less than 2', are strongly marked and are striped (equivalent to jungles) and stimmies that are 5' and poorly patterned (equivalent to coastals). Cross your WA stimmies with North Queensland stimmies, no one calls them mongrel hybrids and they are worth just as much as locality bred.
By the same token, there are black and green coastals, green and green coastal, black and yellow coastals, striped, blocthed, ones that grow to 6', ones that grow to 10' but no one cares if you cross them as some author at some time said they are the same sub species?
No one can deny there is genetic variance, what can be denied is that our current nomenclature is correct.

 

[hugsta]

I agree Mags, it seems very much a concern with highly obvious crosses such as a darwin and a diamond and people forget about "crosses" such as a NT stimmie and a QLD stimmie. Anyone that owns a GTP, more than likely owns a "hybrid" as such as those that are around are mostly Australian/merauke crosses. Not to mention those illegally brought in from the US which have filtered out into the private keepers collections that can afford to have them. Does this mean those that have GTPs should avoid buying other GTPs as well, apparently there are no 'true' Aussie GTPs around.

I guess the question remains, where does a hybrid not become a hybrid?? Are GTPs considered hybrids? If not, then why!!!!!! Along with stimmies, macs, childrens, coastals...etc etc etc.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Magpie
Sorry but I have to disagree with you when you say no one would call a W.A crossed QLD stimson a mongrel, as l can assure you that many people indeed would, and further more would never ever do it. I am not argueing the fors and against here, just stating a fact. I can also add that we are constantly getting calls and e-mails from people only chasing locality pacific reptiles. It seems as though it has become trendy or something :lol:

Cheers Dave

 

[Retic]

Well I guess the simple answer at least in regard carpets is that the 'crossing' of any type other than Bredli and imbricata cannot be considered hybrids as they are the same species, I'm not even sure if the term intergrade is accurate for the same reason.

I guess the question remains, where does a hybrid not become a hybrid?? Are GTPs considered hybrids? If not, then why!!!!!! Along with stimmies, macs, childrens, coastals...etc etc etc.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

hugsta
I can categorically guarantee you that there are native greens pythons held and breeding in private collections here in Australia.

 

[Magpie]

Magpie
Sorry but I have to disagree with you when you say no one would call a W.A crossed QLD stimson a mongrel, as l can assure you that many people indeed would, and further more would never ever do it. I am not argueing the fors and against here, just stating a fact. I can also add that we are constantly getting calls and e-mails from people only chasing locality pacific reptiles. It seems as though it has become trendy or something

Ah, but I did not say no one would, I said no one does. I must admit, I was purely referring to online forums.
I would consider a WA stimmie crossed with a Qld one as much of a "hybrid" as a Jungle x Coastal and more so than a Diamond x Coastal.
But the fact is that all the online bashing of "hybridisers" is only when they cross sub species or species.

 

[flavirufus]

cannot be considered hybrids as they are the same species

They can't be considered species hybrids, but can possibly be considered sub-specific hybrids and can definitely be considered form or locality hybrids. In the same way, the integrade term is also valid.

I can categorically guarantee you that there are native greens pythons held and breeding in private collections here in Australia.

I can confirm that also.

I did not say no one would, I said no one does

I do, you do, Dave does :wink:

 

[Retic]

I agree, they could be considered sub species hybrids if you in fact recognised the sub species. It must be remembered that few people have a locality pure collection, one of the only ways of guaranteeing that is to collect from the wild or to buy wild caught and even then you are accepting the word of the seller.

I think it is a safe bet to assume there are Australian GTP's in collections, it would be naive to think they haven't been collected from the wild.

They can't be considered species hybrids, but can possibly be considered sub-specific hybrids and can definitely be considered form or locality hybrids. In the same way, the integrade term is slos valid.

I can categorically guarantee you that there are native greens pythons held and breeding in private collections here in Australia.

I can confirm that also.

 

[hugsta]

hugsta
I can categorically guarantee you that there are native greens pythons held and breeding in private collections here in Australia.

I know there are native greens availabe here, but, how does the unassumig buyer that is getting their first green know? The breeder can say it is true Aussie, but is it? Obvioulsy there are colour differences and patterns etc etc but most ppl wouldn't know what to look for in a GTP to know if it was 100% Australian or not and even then so, it can be difficult to tell. And, in the future, with all the 'non-native' GTPs around, how are you going to know if it is true or not.

All goes back to the one great debate - hybrids getting into locality specific collections.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

The unassuming or un experinced might never know unless he was up Cape York to witness their theft. :lol:

 

[Dicco]

You can't tell if a green is Aussie based on colouration, Aussie/Non Native locale Green crossed can be dead ringers for pure aussies based on colouration.