Snake Catcher Victoria
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that would explain it nicely
Carpet Python Genetics
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Adam, just drop it. You have a problem with me that's fine but I'm really not interested in your constant little digs and attacks. Please don't talk to me about credibility and morals and being law abiding, don't forget I know you.
I don't have to 'justify my hybrids' as you put it because I HAVEN'T GOT ANY.
I try at all costs to avoid personal attacks but you just wont let it drop.
I don't have to 'justify my hybrids' as you put it because I HAVEN'T GOT ANY.
I try at all costs to avoid personal attacks but you just wont let it drop.
If you don't own a hybrid (which surprises me - you post 'lovely snake' for every pic of one and you claim you buy snakes on looks primarily - never found a nice hybrid?)
and you dont intend breeding them as you state,
What is your agenda?
If it is to poke sticks in my cage, dont cry when I respond.
and you dont intend breeding them as you state,
What is your agenda?
If it is to poke sticks in my cage, dont cry when I respond.
Tremain, you really need to post more often :lol:
I totally agree the 2 snakes are very different in lots of ways but it would seem genetically they appear to be the same. I have no problem with snakes from different areas being called whatever someone chooses to call them but the facts of DNA can't be argued with.
My initial request was for information regarding this study and unfortunately it inevitably turned into a pro/anti hybrid argument for some.
My thoughts were how this would affect the legalities up here for people breeding these animals, IF the findings are accepted when the study is completed then the law regarding the inter breeding of these 2 'species' will not apply as they would in fact be one species.
I feel I have to reinterate one again that I have no interest in breeding a cross between jungles and coastals but I am sure many do have the interest and will be keen to see the results.
The following was sent to me this moring and I am sure the author wont mind me posting it here
' Whilst it is common knowledge that the
Morelia spilota group is very poorly described at best (refer to Wilson and
Swan) - you might want to make reference to Tiger Snakes. They were recently
lumped together in Notechis scutatas, although they do share quite large
differences. Colouration, size and habits all differ between the different
locations. This is called phenotypic plasticity - a trait that allows the
individual animal morph a particular aspect (say, colouration) to increase
the chance of survival, all whilst remaining genetically identical. If
you've ever seen a Tasmanian Tiger Snake next to a Kreffts, you'll know what
I mean! '
What this basically means is that while there is vast intraspecies variation they remain a single species genetically. IF the study in fact returns that result then it really can't be argued with.
A someone who presently has 99% pure animals (the exception being a Tully/Atherton) I share peoples fears but it is up to everyone to keep the 2 separate and be honest. It wont always happen but that is the way of things.
I totally agree the 2 snakes are very different in lots of ways but it would seem genetically they appear to be the same. I have no problem with snakes from different areas being called whatever someone chooses to call them but the facts of DNA can't be argued with.
My initial request was for information regarding this study and unfortunately it inevitably turned into a pro/anti hybrid argument for some.
My thoughts were how this would affect the legalities up here for people breeding these animals, IF the findings are accepted when the study is completed then the law regarding the inter breeding of these 2 'species' will not apply as they would in fact be one species.
I feel I have to reinterate one again that I have no interest in breeding a cross between jungles and coastals but I am sure many do have the interest and will be keen to see the results.
The following was sent to me this moring and I am sure the author wont mind me posting it here
' Whilst it is common knowledge that the
Morelia spilota group is very poorly described at best (refer to Wilson and
Swan) - you might want to make reference to Tiger Snakes. They were recently
lumped together in Notechis scutatas, although they do share quite large
differences. Colouration, size and habits all differ between the different
locations. This is called phenotypic plasticity - a trait that allows the
individual animal morph a particular aspect (say, colouration) to increase
the chance of survival, all whilst remaining genetically identical. If
you've ever seen a Tasmanian Tiger Snake next to a Kreffts, you'll know what
I mean! '
What this basically means is that while there is vast intraspecies variation they remain a single species genetically. IF the study in fact returns that result then it really can't be argued with.
A someone who presently has 99% pure animals (the exception being a Tully/Atherton) I share peoples fears but it is up to everyone to keep the 2 separate and be honest. It wont always happen but that is the way of things.
Adam, I don't really care if it surprises you I don't own a hybrid.
Agenda ? Mmm, maybe I find things like this interesting, it broadens your horizons, you should try it
To poke sticks in your cage :lol: Don't flatter yourself.
Agenda ? Mmm, maybe I find things like this interesting, it broadens your horizons, you should try it
To poke sticks in your cage :lol: Don't flatter yourself.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
Boa
If you really want to know what legality of the situation as far as it stands in Queensland, well here it is, or at least the way it was unless there have been major changes in legal interpretation. In a court of law in Queensland the QED use as a rule Hal Coggers to quantify what a valid reptile species in their eyes as far as species legally kept in that state under reptile licenses. This was also the stance in N.S.W as well. As Coggers has covered jungles and diamonds as Morelia spilota and QED recognize this then you have no problems. I wrote cheynei in my record fauna book many years ago and they got all excited and it brought the jungle it to their attention some what.
Cheers Dave
If you really want to know what legality of the situation as far as it stands in Queensland, well here it is, or at least the way it was unless there have been major changes in legal interpretation. In a court of law in Queensland the QED use as a rule Hal Coggers to quantify what a valid reptile species in their eyes as far as species legally kept in that state under reptile licenses. This was also the stance in N.S.W as well. As Coggers has covered jungles and diamonds as Morelia spilota and QED recognize this then you have no problems. I wrote cheynei in my record fauna book many years ago and they got all excited and it brought the jungle it to their attention some what.
Cheers Dave
indicus
Very Well-Known Member
Granted Boa, i see what your refering to.....
However to a layman like myself, they will always be different, regardless of new studies and or possible name or laws changes.......imo
Inregards to dna being similar or the same, maybe so; but still rather different to me; in many ways....(natural / man made hybrids/ intergrades will always pose problems).....
However to a layman like myself, they will always be different, regardless of new studies and or possible name or laws changes.......imo
Inregards to dna being similar or the same, maybe so; but still rather different to me; in many ways....(natural / man made hybrids/ intergrades will always pose problems).....
Moreliaman
Very Well-Known Member
well true, but im sure it will still be an interesting read & be much more popular after this : the 1353rd debate on hybrids :wink: :lol: (just a guess but im presuming theres been alot of topics on this!)PilbaraPythons said:
Absolutely right, as I said people will always call them Jungles or whatever but my point and the point of the thread is that if the results of this study show as they seem to at this stage that they are one in the same then the legal situation will have to change.
indicus said:
Moreliaman
Very Well-Known Member
this is a breif summary i found
Population structure of the highly polytypic Australian carpet pythons
(Reptilia: Morelia spilota) Molecular genetic population structure was investigated in the polytypic and widespread Australian carpet snake complex (Morelia spilota species complex). Currently two species and six subspecies are recognized based on color, pattern and details of scutation, however the nature of this variation and its geographic distribution has not been rigorously determined. We examined variation in mtDNA control region sequences, 22 allozyme loci and eight microsatellite loci from 350 snakes sampled from 119 locations throughout the range of the complex in Australia and New Guinea. Concordant patterns of variation in all three sets of markers support the taxonomic separation of three sets of populations: central Australia (M. bredli), south-western WA/Eyre Peninsula (M. s. imbricata) and eastern/northern (M. s.spilota). Patterns of variation in flanking sequences and motif arrays for three microsatellite loci provided two diagnostic markers and an insight into the extent of microsatellite allele homoplasy.
above study by: D. Taylor, L. Rawlings, SC. Donnellan and AE. Goodman
Population structure of the highly polytypic Australian carpet pythons
(Reptilia: Morelia spilota) Molecular genetic population structure was investigated in the polytypic and widespread Australian carpet snake complex (Morelia spilota species complex). Currently two species and six subspecies are recognized based on color, pattern and details of scutation, however the nature of this variation and its geographic distribution has not been rigorously determined. We examined variation in mtDNA control region sequences, 22 allozyme loci and eight microsatellite loci from 350 snakes sampled from 119 locations throughout the range of the complex in Australia and New Guinea. Concordant patterns of variation in all three sets of markers support the taxonomic separation of three sets of populations: central Australia (M. bredli), south-western WA/Eyre Peninsula (M. s. imbricata) and eastern/northern (M. s.spilota). Patterns of variation in flanking sequences and motif arrays for three microsatellite loci provided two diagnostic markers and an insight into the extent of microsatellite allele homoplasy.
above study by: D. Taylor, L. Rawlings, SC. Donnellan and AE. Goodman
Maybe instead of calling one side "purists" and one side "hybrids" we will have to now call them "locality carpet breeders" and "non locality carpet breeders". If this paper ends up gospel and there are only 3 species/subspecies then it will be hard to call someone breeding a coastal and a jungle from Nth qld a hybrid breeder. I agree with tremain in as most people have the opinion they are diferent sub species but times change and peoples opinions also change. Who knows 15 years from now what we will call what.
**** who really knows???
**** who really knows???
ill b honest and say that i only red the first post, but dont know if has been said, the polar bear and brown bear in an area have absolutly identical DNA, sorry cant remember any more then that. i was almost falling asleep in genetics so im happy i remembered something
jack
Very Well-Known Member
I just read the whole post...whew! It has occured to me that the word "sub-species" doesnt really mean diddly sqat, maybe just two members of the same species that to human eyes are a little bit different, but to each other are similar enough to reproduce..and produce fertile offspring...(the highschool definition of a species incidently)..they are on their way as far as allopatric speciation goes...
and if you think about it "species" is only meaningful right at this very moment in time, not in the future , not in the past...let me explain, everyone would agree that humans and chimps are different species but humans and chimps share a common ancestor, so if we skip back generations along both genetic trajectories we reach the same point...so where do we become different species? and are we even the same species as our great great great grandparents? We certainly can't reproduce with them...
and to finish, the selective pressures that have driven evolution have given us all the lovely locality specific colours, sizes etc...but in captivity the natural selection is removed, it is artificial selection in place...so all you hybrid breeders go for it, all you locality purists go for it- its all artificial selection, and the whole lot of you make sure to vote green to protect the beasties in the wild, the ones who really matter in the long run for genetic diversity...who knows what all the carpet snakes will look like in a few million years
and if you think about it "species" is only meaningful right at this very moment in time, not in the future , not in the past...let me explain, everyone would agree that humans and chimps are different species but humans and chimps share a common ancestor, so if we skip back generations along both genetic trajectories we reach the same point...so where do we become different species? and are we even the same species as our great great great grandparents? We certainly can't reproduce with them...
and to finish, the selective pressures that have driven evolution have given us all the lovely locality specific colours, sizes etc...but in captivity the natural selection is removed, it is artificial selection in place...so all you hybrid breeders go for it, all you locality purists go for it- its all artificial selection, and the whole lot of you make sure to vote green to protect the beasties in the wild, the ones who really matter in the long run for genetic diversity...who knows what all the carpet snakes will look like in a few million years
peterescue
Very Well-Known Member
Nobody has fully mapped the DNA of Morelia spilota. No two snakes have identical genes. There are minute differences. Remember, genes are what give us our physical differences. Homo sapiens have different genes to each other. Thats why we dont all look identical. Thats why carpets from different locales look different.
If this study proves true, which is most likely to be so, then the laws in QLD will have to change as you can't prosecute someone for producing hybrids if DNA testing has proven them to be the same species. Obvioulsy, this will make a lot of people happy in the sense that they can produce hybrids legally and upset those that want to keep it pure.
When it is all said and done, there will be more hybrids in the next 5 yrs or so and no matter what we think, it will not change. We all know you will be getting albino "you name its" in the near future as so many people already have plans on crossing them with other species, sad, but true. Will make it very hard for someone like myself who cannot afford an albino darwin right now but would certainly like one. In 5 or so years I will be very careful of who I buy an albino off as I would like one to be true to its location. However, I find it fascinating to see what people will produce, the amount of new "morphs" as such, that will be available will be unending. And also, as future keepers enter the hobby, they will not care as much for locality pure animals, but will prefer the pretty coloured snake sitting in the tub, not the locality specific blonde mac. As much as we hate it or like it, it is happening now.
When it is all said and done, there will be more hybrids in the next 5 yrs or so and no matter what we think, it will not change. We all know you will be getting albino "you name its" in the near future as so many people already have plans on crossing them with other species, sad, but true. Will make it very hard for someone like myself who cannot afford an albino darwin right now but would certainly like one. In 5 or so years I will be very careful of who I buy an albino off as I would like one to be true to its location. However, I find it fascinating to see what people will produce, the amount of new "morphs" as such, that will be available will be unending. And also, as future keepers enter the hobby, they will not care as much for locality pure animals, but will prefer the pretty coloured snake sitting in the tub, not the locality specific blonde mac. As much as we hate it or like it, it is happening now.
For what is worth, this is my understanding, as well as many of Australias leading herpetoligists, of the Carpet paper.
The are now 3 distinct species of Carpets in Australia and PNG. These are the Eastern form(Spilotas). The Central form(Bredli). and the Southern western form(imbricata). All three forms are completely isolated from each other and appear to have been for a very long period of time.
However, even though there are now 3 recognised species of Carpets, the paper DID NOT state that all of the spilota form's were identical as is being suggested by certain individuals. There is infact enough genetic variance within the species between each form to still warrant sub species status. Remember, a subspecies is not a seperate species, but a variation between a single species. The paper only confirmed what has been know for years that these different Eastern forms are only subspecies, not full species. This is why spilota has remaned in each of the variations latin names.
A similar result was found with the Green Pythons. It has been found there are now 2 totally distinct species of Greens. The Northern and the Southern. However, it was also found that there was enough variation in the Southern form to warrant 4 distinct subspecies.
Pilbara, here in NSW the NPWS has recognised each of the know subspecies of Spilota(including the most famous of the intergrades) and have alotted different species numbers to each form
The are now 3 distinct species of Carpets in Australia and PNG. These are the Eastern form(Spilotas). The Central form(Bredli). and the Southern western form(imbricata). All three forms are completely isolated from each other and appear to have been for a very long period of time.
However, even though there are now 3 recognised species of Carpets, the paper DID NOT state that all of the spilota form's were identical as is being suggested by certain individuals. There is infact enough genetic variance within the species between each form to still warrant sub species status. Remember, a subspecies is not a seperate species, but a variation between a single species. The paper only confirmed what has been know for years that these different Eastern forms are only subspecies, not full species. This is why spilota has remaned in each of the variations latin names.
A similar result was found with the Green Pythons. It has been found there are now 2 totally distinct species of Greens. The Northern and the Southern. However, it was also found that there was enough variation in the Southern form to warrant 4 distinct subspecies.
Pilbara, here in NSW the NPWS has recognised each of the know subspecies of Spilota(including the most famous of the intergrades) and have alotted different species numbers to each form
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