In SA the NPWS only recognises Morelia Spilota (inc Diamond), Morelia Bredli and Morelia Spilota Imbricarta as seperate sub species of carpets. Therefore in SA you can cross Diamonds with Inlands with Jungles, with Coastals with Darwins no problems. Unless SA seperates the different sub species of Carpets they "cannot" stop anyone crossing or importing crosses.
Designer Morphs
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boa said:
Wow! That is fantastic.
Now while i'm not a herpitologist by any degree (i've only had my first reptiles for 6 months, and they're beardies at that), I really don't understand the close minded opinions of some of you. You're all acting like this snake was just created in a lab, out of a few cells and a beaker of liquid. It's ridiculous to say that you'd rather the 'original' herps, purely because of the 'history' that herp has. These snakes were still bred from other snakes, despite being human selected for breeding, so why are they really any different? They're still snakes, they've still got brains and temperaments, and they all originated from somewhere, so the bias of opinion that non-hybrids are better just because they have some sort of convoluted history is ridiculous.
Granted, i'm not too knowledgable on the subject, and if i'm wrong about the snakes being created from a test tube, then let me know, but as I understand it, these hybrids are born from a process of selective cross breeding, and I don't think that's a bad thing, especially if differentiating species aren't cross bred, causing deformities in the offspring. But if it's just about colouration, then anything but your opinion on how it looks is void.
I think you will also find it is illegal to cross breed sub-specieces in QLD, even Diamond/coastals which has a natural intergadtion. They will also not be keen on anyone keeping crossed animals imported from another state.
This I totally agree with. I can see what will happen in the future when there are so many albino mongels around no one will be sure what genes are in their snakes. IMO this also has a moral issue, if they have no chance of ever breeding in the wild, why would any one want to create a new animal, that is natures job, not the job of a bunch of fools who are obviosly only doing it to try and line their pockects,(which IMO is going to back fire on them), and in their own perverted brains I think it is like a penis extension for them. But in realality they will lose what respect they had from any one with morals in this hobby.
This I totally agree with. I can see what will happen in the future when there are so many albino mongels around no one will be sure what genes are in their snakes. IMO this also has a moral issue, if they have no chance of ever breeding in the wild, why would any one want to create a new animal, that is natures job, not the job of a bunch of fools who are obviosly only doing it to try and line their pockects,(which IMO is going to back fire on them), and in their own perverted brains I think it is like a penis extension for them. But in realality they will lose what respect they had from any one with morals in this hobby.
Yes it is indeed fantastic and a glimpse of what we can expect to see in the years to come. I agree with what you are saying but I will pick you up on one thing, you say 'but as I understand it, these hybrids are born from a process of selective cross breeding' the snake I posted is the result of coastal to coastal so no inter species cross breeding at all. Many morphs are the result of careful linebreeding and selective breeding.
As far as I see it there is plenty of room for these and so called pure snakes in this hobby, I don't see there is any real need for abuse and name calling, it just comes down to a personal preference, I prefer both as it happens.
Well said anyway.
As far as I see it there is plenty of room for these and so called pure snakes in this hobby, I don't see there is any real need for abuse and name calling, it just comes down to a personal preference, I prefer both as it happens.
Well said anyway.
MannyM said:
TrueBlue said:
I agree with Rob on this point, it would be one of my concerns. Also hybrids that look normal for one of the species being sold as purebred.
One of the other concerns is that the taxonomy changes every few years - one moment Bredl's is a subspecies of M.spilota, the next moment it's a separate species altogether.
Can anyone tell me with certainty (ie personal experience) - is a bredli x variegata hybrid fertile?
TrueBlue said:
Unfortunately, there are still a great many people in this hobby without any morals whatsoever.
Hix
NOTE: The last sentence was a statement of fact and was not an attack directed at anyone in particular. If you felt it hit close to home, that's your problem.
mistymtn
Well-Known Member
Hi Boa,
The picture is a nice looking snake, I'm glad it is a morph & not a hybrid. I would be happy to have it in my collection. the problem i see is if someone produced a snake like that as a hybrid & sold it to people as a morph I would be very upset, but it is very hard to know if it is or not. Therefore I would only buy a morph of a breeder I know & trust.
I have been in herps a very short time, so my comment might not mean much to many people. I have been involved in Pure breed dogs for a number of years & see similar situations. To me a hybrid is a crossbreed mongrel & a get rich quick scheme. Just the same as all the designer dogs you see like labradoodles, spoodles etc. Advertised for big money, even more than purebreeds which is ridiculous. I have seen would crossbreeds that can look like the real thing & many people would not know the difference & are likely to get ripped off. That is why I would only buy something like this off someone I know & trust
Morphs, I think are wonderful & are the future for herps. At the same time there is plenty of room for the normal types, but most people do look for the ones with the patterns or markings they like. Which is part of selective breeding.JMO
Line breeding & selective breeding has been going on for many years in most hobbies that involve breeding animals & will continue. it is the the only way to get more consistant result time & time again. Out crossing you never know what you will end up with.
but I think you need to know & trust who you are buying from
This is just my 2 cents worth, which isn't very much :roll:
The picture is a nice looking snake, I'm glad it is a morph & not a hybrid. I would be happy to have it in my collection. the problem i see is if someone produced a snake like that as a hybrid & sold it to people as a morph I would be very upset, but it is very hard to know if it is or not. Therefore I would only buy a morph of a breeder I know & trust.
I have been in herps a very short time, so my comment might not mean much to many people. I have been involved in Pure breed dogs for a number of years & see similar situations. To me a hybrid is a crossbreed mongrel & a get rich quick scheme. Just the same as all the designer dogs you see like labradoodles, spoodles etc. Advertised for big money, even more than purebreeds which is ridiculous. I have seen would crossbreeds that can look like the real thing & many people would not know the difference & are likely to get ripped off. That is why I would only buy something like this off someone I know & trust
Morphs, I think are wonderful & are the future for herps. At the same time there is plenty of room for the normal types, but most people do look for the ones with the patterns or markings they like. Which is part of selective breeding.JMO
Line breeding & selective breeding has been going on for many years in most hobbies that involve breeding animals & will continue. it is the the only way to get more consistant result time & time again. Out crossing you never know what you will end up with.
but I think you need to know & trust who you are buying from
This is just my 2 cents worth, which isn't very much :roll:
There are many bredli hybrids going around, some sold as bredli, some sold as coastals, and probably some being sold as Darwins. I know one person who had a clutch of hatchlings as well as both parents confiscated by the department because he hybridised a bredli with a 'carpet' (he didn't know what type it was, but it certainly wasn't bredli, or licensed as such). Incidentally, this was a well known herp who used to do public shows and has been on TV programs showing reptiles. He believed both parents were males.
I also know of a fair few people who own bredli hybrids. Unfortunately, all the hybrid lovers are going to produce them, they'll say there's nothing wrong with it, those wanting pure animals will be upset and blame the hybridisers, the debate will continue for years until finally everyone will realise there's no hope and give up on trying to have anything guaranteed pure. Have a look at USA, they're already there. It's very sad, but there will be little pure stuff available in Australia in the not too distant future. We have the advantage of still having some known lines, and the knowledge of their importance (USA started hybridising earlier) but unfortunately, very few people care and to most "QLD" or "NT" etc are locations. People now blame a lack of knowledge for the almost complete loss of captive Children's python data, but are still content to say they have "WA" this or "QLD" that. Three subspecies of Children's pythons (maculosa, childreni and stimsoni) occur in QLD, two in NT, three in WA... do state lablels really help? How much good will they be down the line when we realise we have to split more species up? People aren't interested in keeping track of a specific location, such as a town, swamp or patch of forest, which is what is really needed. Many people have tried hard to obtain and breed specific location animals, but before too long, these efforts will be completely redundant. I suppose it will come down to captive reptiles being novelty pets and those interested in seeing natural animals will have to see them in the wild.
I also know of a fair few people who own bredli hybrids. Unfortunately, all the hybrid lovers are going to produce them, they'll say there's nothing wrong with it, those wanting pure animals will be upset and blame the hybridisers, the debate will continue for years until finally everyone will realise there's no hope and give up on trying to have anything guaranteed pure. Have a look at USA, they're already there. It's very sad, but there will be little pure stuff available in Australia in the not too distant future. We have the advantage of still having some known lines, and the knowledge of their importance (USA started hybridising earlier) but unfortunately, very few people care and to most "QLD" or "NT" etc are locations. People now blame a lack of knowledge for the almost complete loss of captive Children's python data, but are still content to say they have "WA" this or "QLD" that. Three subspecies of Children's pythons (maculosa, childreni and stimsoni) occur in QLD, two in NT, three in WA... do state lablels really help? How much good will they be down the line when we realise we have to split more species up? People aren't interested in keeping track of a specific location, such as a town, swamp or patch of forest, which is what is really needed. Many people have tried hard to obtain and breed specific location animals, but before too long, these efforts will be completely redundant. I suppose it will come down to captive reptiles being novelty pets and those interested in seeing natural animals will have to see them in the wild.
My my a good fun thread!!! My Thoughts are these-
Morphs will appear in Australia as people who want them are looking for or trying to breed them themselves. I think that morphs wont nessesarily be worth the same money over here due to supply and demand. There is still ongoing taxonomic classification of snakes and it is difficult to tell already the 'purity' of animals (childreni subspecies a good example). People have their preferences and I would look at morphs only if I knew the breeder or he had a very good reputation.
I have no idea about the government legislation with regards to hybrids, an the like.
But the best thought is live and let live. Morphers will breed morphs and purists will breed pure. Both will have their following in the herp world, I am curious as to the morphs that may come along. I have several species to buy and hopefully breed yet. So I am sitting on the fence and enjoying the sights. Much enjoyment from the thread so far. Keep it up all..................
Morphs will appear in Australia as people who want them are looking for or trying to breed them themselves. I think that morphs wont nessesarily be worth the same money over here due to supply and demand. There is still ongoing taxonomic classification of snakes and it is difficult to tell already the 'purity' of animals (childreni subspecies a good example). People have their preferences and I would look at morphs only if I knew the breeder or he had a very good reputation.
I have no idea about the government legislation with regards to hybrids, an the like.
But the best thought is live and let live. Morphers will breed morphs and purists will breed pure. Both will have their following in the herp world, I am curious as to the morphs that may come along. I have several species to buy and hopefully breed yet. So I am sitting on the fence and enjoying the sights. Much enjoyment from the thread so far. Keep it up all..................
Boa,- I have no problem with line breeding for morphs, as long as it stays within in the same sub-speices, its the crossing of those that I dont like. Look at half the anteresia' s down south, know one nows whats what half the time because of this.
I have hypos that produce the odd animal that has very simular traits to the jag you posted, in a season or two you will see hypos being produced in oz that look as jag as any over seas, wait and see.
I have hypos that produce the odd animal that has very simular traits to the jag you posted, in a season or two you will see hypos being produced in oz that look as jag as any over seas, wait and see.
munkee said:
I agree with you, except that while hybridisers hybridise and purists attempt to breed pure, the waters will be muddied and no one will know what's what. There will be very few people around with pure animals, just a few very keen people who manage to keep a very few pure lines going. I'll do it with Water Pythons of course and will never polute my lines, I'm sure others will do it with their own favourites, but it will very soon get to the stage where anyone new to the game won't be able to get their hands on a pure line of their own favourite species. Soon enough, people will give up.
olivehydra
Very Well-Known Member
Dont want to get too deep and meaningful, as I tend to drown in deep water :wink: but,.... someone, (I think TB) mentioned mother nature and allowing it to progress without human help.
I believe humans are part of "mother nature" and therefore shouldnt our actions also be considered part of nature? To seperate ourselves from our environment is something that happens all too often. I think a hybrid snake is still a snake, its not quite "Blade Runner" yet, where we have artificial vs real? Perhaps it is just a "class" issue, in which pure animals are assigned more value because their folks came from "old money"?
I believe humans are part of "mother nature" and therefore shouldnt our actions also be considered part of nature? To seperate ourselves from our environment is something that happens all too often. I think a hybrid snake is still a snake, its not quite "Blade Runner" yet, where we have artificial vs real? Perhaps it is just a "class" issue, in which pure animals are assigned more value because their folks came from "old money"?
There are still quite a number of us die hard locality specific breeders out there sdaji, hell I even try to keep my jungles local specific wereas alot these days are crossing them with athertons.
With Pilbarapythons on a legal mission in WA, garranteed local specific animals are the order of the day, and belive me they have some stunners I should know as a number are here on a breeding program.
They are going out of their way to keep things local and this to me in IMO is the whole basis of the reason we keep reptiles, if an environmental disarster or the likes were to happen in an area at least we may have a chance of re-introducing the animals back into their habitat once every thing was safe to do so.
With Pilbarapythons on a legal mission in WA, garranteed local specific animals are the order of the day, and belive me they have some stunners I should know as a number are here on a breeding program.
They are going out of their way to keep things local and this to me in IMO is the whole basis of the reason we keep reptiles, if an environmental disarster or the likes were to happen in an area at least we may have a chance of re-introducing the animals back into their habitat once every thing was safe to do so.
Its been done in oz before with a number of mamals and if the need was ever there and the animals fitted the correct criteria ie disease free etc Im sure that it would be possible with reptiles as well.
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