Here here!
Interesting read, whether or not we agree or not, it happened, is going to happen and willc ontinue to happen.. Dont know if its right or wrong but at the end of the day, I like the look of them.
Jungle Cross GTP
Help Support Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum:
- Status
Here here!
Interesting read, whether or not we agree or not, it happened, is going to happen and willc ontinue to happen.. Dont know if its right or wrong but at the end of the day, I like the look of them.
SnakeWrangler
Very Well-Known Member
Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: x breeds
Once again, you choose to remove the final authority from your world, you must live with the consequences, you no longer have anything on which to base your morals, alone morals are subjective, that is how you want it, isn't it?
Note: I do not wish to start a discussion about God, my point is that in a world that refuses to acknowledge him, what else can you expect but everyone doing as they please.
Elapids do not need venom in captivity, as you said they are thriving without it. Is Ray Hoser in the wrong for what he did, in my opinion the way he done it was wrong, but who am I to say that what he did was wrong? Who are you or anyone to say it? Sure you can have an opinion, but just because you think its wrong doesn't make it wrong.JandC_Reptiles said:
Once again, you choose to remove the final authority from your world, you must live with the consequences, you no longer have anything on which to base your morals, alone morals are subjective, that is how you want it, isn't it?
Note: I do not wish to start a discussion about God, my point is that in a world that refuses to acknowledge him, what else can you expect but everyone doing as they please.
Spot on Moose, as you rightly say and this has been said many times there will always be purists and ironically as I am pro hybrid I am one of those purists :lol: That might sound like having an each way bet but to me it makes perfect sense, I can see the attraction of both and the two aren't mutually exclusive.
There are plenty of people out there who can't bring themselves to admit any hybrid can be a good looking animal based purely on the fact that it was created by a method they don't agree with.
As has been said this has been a very well mannered debate and well done to everyone for that, there is no excuse to ever make these things personal.
There are plenty of people out there who can't bring themselves to admit any hybrid can be a good looking animal based purely on the fact that it was created by a method they don't agree with.
As has been said this has been a very well mannered debate and well done to everyone for that, there is no excuse to ever make these things personal.
moosenoose said:
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
So Boa has an aviator??? I didn't even know he had a plane!
Yep, I expected to find this thread in a smoking heap this morning too - well done everyone! But I'll keep it going for a bit longer...
Let me say to start with, some of the hybrid animals I have seen are quite beautiful, I don't "hate" them (or any animal... except funnel webs and centipedes haha!) but regardless of how gorgeous they may be, if you think about it seriously, with consideration for the long-term, they represent a significant threat to the viability of our hobby. And I always know that the hybrids that are shown-off by their breeders are probably the best examples of several to many in the clutch. What happens to the others that you don't see?
We need to totally disregard the individual animals in this debate, it's the principle that's most important here. The genetic material we have available to us as keepers/breeders is (generally) limited for most species, with the exception of animals from WA and the NT which allow, for the time being anyway, a legal take from the wild.
As a keeper/breeder myself, I regard myself as privileged to be able to work with these animals, and something of a "caretaker" for the future of the interest. I have to behave ethically with both the animals in my care, and the people with whom I have reptile dealings. I have been in the keeping game for more than 40 years, starting long before routine captive breeding was considered possible. The past 20 years has seen HUGE gains in our understanding of these creatures, and the consequent expansion of the hobby/interest. The genetic material that many of you now have in your collections is far too valuable to allow it to be contaminated on a whim, just because you can. To cross-breed something now, just because you want something "pretty," is just plain vandalism, and will have far greater repercussions generations down the track, when there are literally hundreds of (multigenerational) animals from your experiment in circulation, and you are long forgotten. As I said before, the situation is irretrievable once the genie is out of the bottle.
Unless we can convince the wildlife authorities to allow an occasional wild-take...
J.
Yep, I expected to find this thread in a smoking heap this morning too - well done everyone! But I'll keep it going for a bit longer...
Let me say to start with, some of the hybrid animals I have seen are quite beautiful, I don't "hate" them (or any animal... except funnel webs and centipedes haha!) but regardless of how gorgeous they may be, if you think about it seriously, with consideration for the long-term, they represent a significant threat to the viability of our hobby. And I always know that the hybrids that are shown-off by their breeders are probably the best examples of several to many in the clutch. What happens to the others that you don't see?
We need to totally disregard the individual animals in this debate, it's the principle that's most important here. The genetic material we have available to us as keepers/breeders is (generally) limited for most species, with the exception of animals from WA and the NT which allow, for the time being anyway, a legal take from the wild.
As a keeper/breeder myself, I regard myself as privileged to be able to work with these animals, and something of a "caretaker" for the future of the interest. I have to behave ethically with both the animals in my care, and the people with whom I have reptile dealings. I have been in the keeping game for more than 40 years, starting long before routine captive breeding was considered possible. The past 20 years has seen HUGE gains in our understanding of these creatures, and the consequent expansion of the hobby/interest. The genetic material that many of you now have in your collections is far too valuable to allow it to be contaminated on a whim, just because you can. To cross-breed something now, just because you want something "pretty," is just plain vandalism, and will have far greater repercussions generations down the track, when there are literally hundreds of (multigenerational) animals from your experiment in circulation, and you are long forgotten. As I said before, the situation is irretrievable once the genie is out of the bottle.
Unless we can convince the wildlife authorities to allow an occasional wild-take...
J.
waruikazi
Legendary
That was very well put J.
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
Thanks W! I hope this thread doesn't put an end to my rodent breeding business!
Jamie.
Jamie.
waruikazi
Legendary
I think this thread has really shown how passionate we are about our hobby. I think it would take a very small mind for somone to think less of any one who contributed to this thread.
I think one word can explain this entire discussion... Passion
I think one word can explain this entire discussion... Passion
Wow! spent the last hour reading all these posts and I have to say excellent discussion! Fuelled by emotions, beliefs and a sprinkling of scientific fact. Thats why I continue to come to this site.
My only point is, Whether these hybrids are beautiful creatures or frankenstein's monsters, if enough of them escape, (as does happen from time to time) what will be the impact on the local population of a certain species? could this eventually lead to a reduction in the number of different species of pythons in some regions of australia or even throughout Australia? Will the name (Eastern coastal python) include every type of python which live along the coast? no more jungles, Brisbanes, diamonds, scrubbies, could this even reach inland?
For me this is the greatest fear all these little variations in snakes becoming just a conglomerate of all the different sub-species which exist as we speak, But for how much longer?
My only point is, Whether these hybrids are beautiful creatures or frankenstein's monsters, if enough of them escape, (as does happen from time to time) what will be the impact on the local population of a certain species? could this eventually lead to a reduction in the number of different species of pythons in some regions of australia or even throughout Australia? Will the name (Eastern coastal python) include every type of python which live along the coast? no more jungles, Brisbanes, diamonds, scrubbies, could this even reach inland?
For me this is the greatest fear all these little variations in snakes becoming just a conglomerate of all the different sub-species which exist as we speak, But for how much longer?
Exactly, I have been waiting for a thread on this subject that can go full term without resorting to attacks and irrelevant comments. Yes I think passion sums it up well, both sides are valid and neither side will agree with the other.
I don't actually see that it will spell the end of our hobby as we know it and I can't see that getting 'pure' animals will be any harder than it is now.
I don't actually see that it will spell the end of our hobby as we know it and I can't see that getting 'pure' animals will be any harder than it is now.
I don't see that being anymore of a problem that exists at present, any python that escapes will potentially dilute the local gene pool. If a jungle or Bredls escapes in Brisbane or Darwin it will do just as much harm as a hybrid. Part of the reason my reptile room is escape proof, hopefully 
Davo said:
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
It just makes sense that the more hybridised animals that are out there, the more likely it will be that animals available will be contaminated. I really don't see a huge problem for me at the moment - I'm reasonably well networked and can pretty much get what I want with a fair degree of certainty that I'm getting what I seek. But in the future that will inevitably change. It's like p*ssing in a swimming pool, it doesn't stay where you do it, however much it is diluted, it's still in there and will eventually contaminate every drop of the water in that pool. Frankly, it's not something I care to swim in (if it was someone else's that is lol!)
Jamie.
Jamie.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
Simply put if it is against the law to cross bred different reptiles species in Australia then it should not be done.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
Boa
What state is it deemed legal ?
What state is it deemed legal ?
P
Pythoninfinite
Guest
I think it's legislative oversight that it's not illegal everywhere - it should be, not that it would stop people from doing it. I'm very happy to campaign to have it specifically prohibited by law here in NSW - anyone else with me on that? WA and Qld actively prohibit by legislation, the other states discourage, but have no legislation in place as far as I know. Probably wasn't even on their radar when the laws were drafted.
If we can encourage a more responsible, thoughtful approach to the things we do with our reptiles, and the general reptile-keeping community understands the implications of hybridising for the future of our interest, then hopefully it will change the "anything goes" attitude that seems to prevail at the moment. Ethical thinking has to be part of the general culture, but there will always be larrikins out there who don't care about the implications of their actions down the line...
Jamie.
If we can encourage a more responsible, thoughtful approach to the things we do with our reptiles, and the general reptile-keeping community understands the implications of hybridising for the future of our interest, then hopefully it will change the "anything goes" attitude that seems to prevail at the moment. Ethical thinking has to be part of the general culture, but there will always be larrikins out there who don't care about the implications of their actions down the line...
Jamie.
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
I will know for sure shortly as I have contacted departments in several states for their legal stance. It is interesting already how horrified ( although not surprising ) every person that I have spoke to in these departments so far is about the cross breeding concept.
Well I guess NSW aren't horrified as they create a new species number when a new cross turns up. I guess something else worth mentioning is the legality of it will have zero affect on it happening in the same way as collecting from the wild or deliberately killing snakes or keeping exotics.
The only reason I wouldn't agree is that you are trying to force it on everyone. It is your opnion that 'it should be' illegal. I realise you are against it and I have total respect for that but because you are against it you shouldn't try to use that to change a law to suit your opinion.
Pythoninfinite said:
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
I think you will find it is much more than Pythonsinfinites opinion. I would be very surprised if it isn't 90 percent of all reptile keepers opinion. Lets see how big this thing gets when there are prosecutions and further more I have been asked personally for names of people that purposly do this by one department. Currently I have the legal sections of several wildlife departments looking into this in detail as we speak. Some of the advice I have been given from one wild life department is that if they have not got legislation to permit cross breeding there will be a letter sent to the minister explaining the situation and asking for change. Sounds good to me.
- Status
