Jungle Cross GTP

[Pythoninfinite]

Interesting Dave - I was considering doing that myself, let's know what you find out. I'd be pretty sure we can mount some fair arguments for legislative change in NSW without too much touble too. (I have to say I have always had problems with CALM's conservative line, but I'm with them all the way on this one.)

I think the value of changing the law to make it illegal, while it won't stop the diehards who will do anything for a bit of attention, or to make a buck, is in letting every keeper, especially new ones, that with the licence (and therefore the privilege) to keep a reptile, comes the responsibility to behave ethically at all times with those animals. I could also say Boa, that just because you see nothing wrong with it, doesn't make it right or acceptable. Whichever way you look at it, hybridising IS unacceptable for the future of the herpetoculture interest, the fact that someone wants the flashest snake around regardless of the long term consequences for the species is not sufficient argument for it happen. And if we can get every new keeper coming on line to at least consider the consequences as they enter the hobby, then we have served a very good purpose.

Jamie.

 

[Retic]

Well most polls seem to show the majority like hybrids/crosses to some extent or another so you would have to imagine that a similar % would be against any legislation stopping their breeding.
I seem to remember a poll on here recently that showed that sort of % and even judging by responses in this thread you wouldn't get anywhere near 90% against.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I have been asked by one wild life office to come up with a name to represent the cause of many to be presented to the minister. I will definately needs some help here and I know I will cause many to hate me me over this, but so be it.

 

[Magpie]

I think that will be a great step forward.
As almost none of us can prove 100% beyond a doubt that our animals are pure and DNA testing is almost useless to help, no one will be legally able to breed their reptiles any more. Fan-bloody-tastic.

 

[peterjohnson64]

I ahve direct access to shadow ministers in NSW. As this is a good idea and clearly an oversight they would love to take up the issue. If it is the NSW dept you are talking to Dave then let me know who and I am straight in there.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration Magpie! I'm no fan of legislating against things generally either, but when a few have the potential to damage it for everyone, we need to raise the herp community consciousness about issues such as this. I've always felt that bureaucrats & wildlife are a bad combination, but what else can you do?

Jamie.

 

[waruikazi]

I think illegalising it will have much worse ramafictions for the hobby than legalising it. Do you really think that people are going to stop doing it? or what bout those accidnetal crosses. All this will do is drive it underground and cause poeple who do have excess of these hybrid animals to sell them dishonestly as something they are not so that they do not get prosecuted. Banning it will not control it. I think it should be illegal (and i would be really suprised if it isn't) to sell these animals as pure when they are not, they should be given a species code, beginning with H for hybrid maybe, so that they can be tracked and sold ethically so that the tom, dick or harry that has one that they no longer want doesn't and can't sell these hybrid animals as something they are not.

That is something that could control this potential or real problem, depending on how you look at it.

 

[waruikazi]

If that makes sense?

 

[Retic]

Exactly right Magpie, it will be fine for those with all wild caught but of no use whatsoever for those of us with multiple generation captive bred animals where we rely purely on the honesty of the breeder and the breeder before them.
It just seems to be a case of 'I don't like it so I want it banned'.

Pythoninfinite this " Whichever way you look at it, hybridising IS unacceptable for the future of the herpetoculture interest " is clearly not the case, it is what you believe but it is in no way accurate to say whichever way you look at it because a great many people don't look at it like that.

I have never said I see nothing wrong with it, I have said that assuming breeders are honest it wont cause any problems, as unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world there will ALWAYS be those who ignore the law and do the wrong thing.

All I can see it doing is forcing them underground along with exotics and breeders will just sell their animals as pure regardless. I just can't see that it accomplishes anything JMO.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Gordo, I hope you haven't been drinking beer and eating popcorn since this thread started... I told you to put a good supply in!

Legislation should always be a last resort, and of course people will always do it because they can, but if it says on your licence when you get it that hybridising carries a penalty if you get caught, then just MAYBE someone will think about the very evident consequences of this activity, and not mix their species. Accidentally produced hybrids should be destroyed, or their eggs destroyed.

Jamie.

 

[waruikazi]

All I can see it doing is forcing them underground along with exotics and breeders will just sell their animals as pure regardless. I just can't see that it accomplishes anything JMO.

I just thought of a worse thing it could do, cause people to release their unwanted illegal animals into the wild. And that could truly damage our hooby.

 

[waruikazi]

Gordo, I hope you haven't been drinking beer and eating popcorn since this thread started... I told you to put a good supply in!

Legislation should always be a last resort, and of course people will always do it because they can, but if it says on your licence when you get it that hybridising carries a penalty if you get caught, then just MAYBE someone will think about the very evident consequences of this activity, and not mix their species. Accidentally produced hybrids should be destroyed, or their eggs destroyed.

Jamie.

I really disagree mate, MAYBE someone will think they might have found a niche market for hybrids :?: . I am not a hybrid fan, i don't own any and do not plan to any time soon. But like the illegal exotic trade it will continue with it being illegal. But i don't really think this should be compared to the exotic trade.

This should be controlled, not banned. Making it legal within certain constraints i think is the only way to do it and allow for people to be honest about what they have and are selling.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

I've always felt that bureaucrats & wildlife are a bad combination

And why is that I wonder? That is a bit hypocritical isn't it, the two shouldn't be combined unless they are doing something that you think is right.

warulkazi, that couldn't happen because people wouldn't breed them if it were illegal, I think it is obvious from the past that when something is made illegal, it solves the problem. You do realise that there are no exotics in Australia because it is illegal, dont you?

 

[Retic]

I have to agree, there is a personal agenda here and it is very obvious.

I understand there are also no drugs here or illegal guns and people don't speed. :lol:

I've always felt that bureaucrats & wildlife are a bad combination

And why is that I wonder? That is a bit hypocritical isn't it, the two shouldn't be combined unless they are doing something that you think is right.

warulkazi, that couldn't happen because people wouldn't breed them if it were illegal, I think it is obvious from the past that when something is made illegal, it solves the problem. You do realise that there are no exotics in Australia because it is illegal, dont you?

 

[Magpie]

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration Magpie! I'm no fan of legislating against things generally either, but when a few have the potential to damage it for everyone, we need to raise the herp community consciousness about issues such as this. I've always felt that bureaucrats & wildlife are a bad combination, but what else can you do?

Not really, it's either a toothless tiger or they investigate and prosecute anyone who is reported to be breeding hybrids.
As I'm sure you know, a lot of the reptiles out there don't really fit the (sub)species defenition, scale counts, patterning etc and a lot of those definitions are fairly vague.
What's the diference between an atherton jungle and a coastal?
A diference that you can prove in a court of law that is.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Here is a small list of things we have to look forward to if it is made illegal:

1) Mass production of hybrids to control the underground market.
2) Huge profits for those that do because they sell high to cover the risk
3) Mass release of hybrids into the wild when people get spooked and dump their entire setup
4) Huge numbers of hybrids being sold as pure on license
5) Pure animal prices skyrocket because the demand for guaranteed pure animals increases expoentially

Need I go on?

 

[waruikazi]

I think it is obvious that there is enough concern about this issue that something needs to be done about it. Pythoninfinite why don't you lobby your local member or who ever it is you will be contocating to perform a consensus as to what the overall herp keeping population want? That way we can really see what herpers want for our hobby and then we can make some changes in legislation to suit.

At the moment all of our eyes are clouded by what we want for ourselves and we think we are speaking for the majority or the best thing for our hobby, when it is obvious that some of aren't because we can't all be right!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Nope, nothing you could call a personal agenda here, or at least anything more than your own Boa. Maybe call it a real concern that a few could damage the interest for a lot. Look, maybe I am pushing s**t uphill with this one in the long term, but the arguments against are FAR stronger than any argument for. The old guns & drugs and speeding arguments are really rather silly in this context, although I can see that the prohibition on handguns and automatic weapons in this country makes us a lot safer on the streets here than we would be in the US... even though there are some of each out there illegally.

And nope, nothing hypocritical there either SnakeWrangler, I have worked professionally with wildlife and bureaucrats for 40 years, some of it good and helpful, some boneheaded and very frustrating. On balance, they do what they can with the information they've got, often (and unfortunately) with a little personal sentiment and prejudice thrown in. That's all I was alluding to.

Jamie.

 

[Retic]

Ah now you are wrong there because you want them stopped because you don't like them, I on the other hand can see the beauty in the snakes and don't see the same threat to our entire hobby like you do. If I bred hybrids then I would have an agenda but as I don't breed them I have nothing to gain either way.

Nope, nothing you could call a personal agenda here, or at least anything more than your own Boa. Jamie.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

It should not be a question of what is good for us as reptile keepers but what is good for the protection of wild Australian native fauna.