Reptile Emotions Debate

[longqi]

Levels of stress are not emotions. Reptiles have very simple behaviours and all are linked to their individual survival and the survival of their species. They run on pure instinct and have no need for emotions, that's why they have been so successful. If they bite a person, it's only because that person has triggered a instinctual reaction such as feeding or a safety response. If they "cuddle" a person it's only because they haven't being triggered or because being close to 36 degrees triggers their instinct to warm up. As much as people like to think they have emotions and love people, they don't... and there is no proof to say otherwise

Although there is no scientifically based 'proof' to prove otherwise it does appear than that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that some reptiles have responded in ways that suggest at least some emotional response??

 

[D3pro]

At this point I would probably say the answers point more towards a tie which is excellent in my opinion
Hopefully some people who were convinced that reptiles do have not any emotions will ask a few questions now
Hopefully others who are convinced their reptiles 'love them to bits' will do the same

I wouldn't be looking for answers based on the opinions of forum dwellers lol. There is not much point debating on a topic which lacks hard evidence on both sides...
meh, selavi

Although there is no scientifically based 'proof' to prove otherwise it does appear than that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that some reptiles have responded in ways that suggest at least some emotional response??

How do you know that the evidence seen is not simply a complex reaction of animal instinct interpreted by a human as emotion?

 

[longqi]

Ianinoz
Could it just be that Lizzie has found a safe place to be and frequents it because those birds cant get her there??

I wouldn't be looking for answers based on the opinions of forum dwellers lol. There is not much point debating on a topic which lacks hard evidence on both sides...
meh, selavi



How do you know that the evidence seen is not simply a complex reaction of animal instinct interpreted by a human as emotion?

Actually I think this is exactly the right place to ask this question because reptiles tested in a sterile laboratory may respond totally differently to those that have been included as pets in part of a family??

Your last point is an extremely valid one
That is what this great discussion is trying to uncover

 

[D3pro]

Ianinoz
Actually I think this is exactly the right place to ask this question because reptiles tested in a sterile laboratory may respond totally differently to those that have been included as pets in part of a family??

Maybe, but the problem with that is that the people looking after the reptile as a pet has no idea what they are looking for.... most likely from the lack of scientific backing

 

[fugawi]

Sam and D3pro.....You keep asking for proof of emotions from reptiles but realistically there is no proof that they don't. Assigning the tag "instinct" to the behaviors works just as well towards our "Human" emotions. A human baby cries instinctively when hungry, as it grows it knows that mum will come when it cries, a learned response. Anger could be argued as an instinctive dominance response, happiness could be a learned response to put others at ease etc. This is also the reason we keep looking into mammals and continually asking "What is emotion?" We keep on falling into the trap of assigning "human" levels and degrees of emotions. I personally think that all creatures can feel some degree of emotions or show some degree of emotive response, love may be a fleeting inkling of a mildly pleasurable association for example.
Why do some of us believe that only we can have emotions and then try to argue that the same emotive responses in animals are considered instinct?

 

[ianinoz]

I've seen magpies open boxes and plastic containers , take the lid off, to access left over food inside them.

And to watch young magpies frolicing, playing in the front yard, is hilarious and a sure indication that magpies have plenty of brains.

Same goes for rosellas, galahs, sulphur crested parrots too, all regular visitors to my yard (we encourage them by leaving leaving a little bit of tasty stuff for in a dish). They are very funny to watch when they decide to play.

Maybe, but the problem with that is that the people looking after the reptile as a pet has no idea what they are looking for.... most likely from the lack of scientific backing

How did my nick get there.

Well known in science that often the act of observing something changes the observed. (in physics anyway).

I don't think laboratory testing will ever answer this question, creatures like lizards would always be stressed in a laboratory setting.

You really need to let the reptile be himself and do his own thing and simply watch his behaviour and deduce what the animal is feeling from observations of the reptiles behaviour when it's a free agent.

Ianinoz
Could it just be that Lizzie has found a safe place to be and frequents it because those birds cant get her there??



Actually I think this is exactly the right place to ask this question because reptiles tested in a sterile laboratory may respond totally differently to those that have been included as pets in part of a family??

Your last point is an extremely valid one
That is what this great discussion is trying to uncover

Pretty cleavour of Lizzy to do so don't you think.

Obvious that since Lizzy was a daily visitor, frequently a few times a day, for 6 months shows Lizzy knew Lizzy was onto a good thing and knew he was safe with us (we never chased him, never tried to catch him, or to grab him or even touch him, and we shared our food with him too.

 

[longqi]

^^^^
I would really love to see a set of tests done using 'pet' reptiles as opposed to laboratory ones

But I can find no indications anywhere that this has ever been done

 

[ianinoz]

^^^^
I would really love to see a set of tests done using 'pet' reptiles as opposed to laboratory ones

But I can find no indications anywhere that this has ever been done

Probably never will, would you part with your pets and let someone subject them to scientific testing (that might harm or stress them) given the choice. I'm betting few owners who have particularly charming or "affectionate" or tame lizards would. Plus most of you guys bought your pets and they weren't cheap.

I'm very lucky in that Lizzy chose to live with us. Isn't that in itself an indicator of intelligence and a positive emotional indicator. It goes against what you'd think would be natural instincts to avoid humans.

 

[SamNabz]

Why do some of us believe that only we can have emotions and then try to argue that the same emotive responses in animals are considered instinct?

Don't twist my words mate... Where in any of my posts have I said anything close to this? I am talking about reptiles... A lot of other animals do have and show emotion; they can also be taught to do things on command (even defecate!). However there is always the possibility of any animals natural instinct to appear. Reptile on the other hand do not obey commands, come when called etc.

Here's a little experiment for you or anyone; go get a mate of yours that doesn't frequent your house and/or collection, put a snake in the middle of the room and go on opposite sides of the room. If the snake goes to you (seeing as they are most peoples 'companions') let me know, however film it and show us.

^^^^
I would really love to see a set of tests done using 'pet' reptiles as opposed to laboratory ones

But I can find no indications anywhere that this has ever been done

I'm curious... So what is the difference between a pet reptile and a lab owned one that they study and learn off?

I'm sure they have them set up in boxes (enclosures) and feed them as frequently as we do (depending on the study being done). So what is the difference? That they don't handle them or interact with them as much?

I have reptiles in my collection that I've had countless hours of interaction with, raised from hatchies and others with none at all (just feed, clean etc.) and neither of them act differently to each other in any way shape or form.

Does this mean I have dud reptiles? No, it simply means I am not trying to convince myself that they care about me as they are incapable of doing so...

 

[longqi]

Probably never will, would you part with your pets and let someone subject them to scientific testing (that might harm or stress them) given the choice. I'm betting few owners who have particularly charming or "affectionate" or tame lizards would. Plus most of you guys bought your pets and they weren't cheap.

I'm very lucky in that Lizzy chose to live with us. Isn't that in itself an indicator of intelligence and a positive emotional indicator. It goes against what you'd think would be natural instincts to avoid humans.

I for one would quite happily let supervised testing be done on both seldom handled and my pet reptiles just to try to get a definitive answer to this question
So long as the tests were designed in such a way that I felt comfortable with them I could not see a reason not to encourage this
I dont think a test for emotional responses would mean that they would have to hurt or stress the reptiles; but Im not a scientist so maybe the response to stress would have to be included??

 

[GeckPhotographer]

Hopefully others who are convinced their reptiles 'love them to bits' will do the same

Thats even more black and white than people are making this debate. It is not either no emotion or love them to bits there is broad middle ground.

How do you know that the evidence seen is not simply a complex reaction of animal instinct interpreted by a human as emotion?

How do you know that human emotion is not a complex reaction of animal instinct interpreted by ourselves as emotion and thus meaning that instincts and emotions are at least mostly synonymous?
Also I would like to point out that "simply a complex" is a highly confusing phrase.

 

[fugawi]

Longqi....Observations of wild reptiles would also be needed.

I have Davey, my Central Beardie, sitting on the warmest part of my laptop, watching the screen as I type this. If he acted purely on instinct, he should be flaring up and showing a flight or fight instinct but he doesn't. He has his head on my wrist, occasionally watching the screen, when he actually opens his eyes. He is showing no instinctual behaviour except warming his tummy. How can this be explained? I don't believe he is showing love, but he is showing a knowledge that he won't be hurt and feels comfortable enough to close his eyes while resting his head on my wrist. I say he is feeling comfortable because a feeling is an emotive response.

 

[longqi]

Don't twist my words mate... Where in any of my posts have I said anything close to this? I am talking about reptiles... A lot of other animals do have and show emotion; they can also be taught to do things on command (even defecate!). However there is always the possibility of any animals natural instinct to appear. Reptile on the other hand do not obey commands, come when called etc.

Here's a little experiment for you or anyone; go get a mate of yours that doesn't frequent your house and/or collection, put a snake in the middle of the room and go on opposite sides of the room. If the snake goes to you (seeing as they are most peoples 'companions') let me know, however film it and show us.



I'm curious... So what is the difference between a pet reptile and a lab owned one that they study and learn off?

I'm sure they have them set up in boxes (enclosures) and feed them as frequently as we do (depending on the study being done). So what is the difference? That they don't handle them or interact with them as much?

I have reptiles in my collection that I've had countless hours of interaction with, raised from hatchies and others with none at all (just feed, clean etc.) and neither of them act differently to each other in any way shape or form.

Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment as we talk here
It has only be going for one day so far so results are interesting but by no means conclusive in any way
Go back about 3 or 4 pages and have a gander

I have both 'pet' and breeding stock
The reaction and interaction of both is very different in my opinion
Just as simple example I would never expect any of my pet reptiles to even hint at a threat display no matter who is handling them
But I definitely cannot say the same about the breeding stock that are seldom handled
So if their natural instinct is flee or fight and this has changed in the pet ones
Surely other things may have changed as well???

Fugawi
There is probably enough testing/reporting been done on wild reptiles
That is where most of the scientific results have come from
So we probably can just use those tests as a very valid comparison??

Uh Oh
mammals and reptiles again
If someone had tested the first wild dogs for emotional response I think the answers would be very different to testing a lap dog from nowdays???

 

[SamNabz]

Littleredjim is conducting exactly this experiment as we talk here
It has only be going for one day so far so results are interesting but by no means conclusive in any way
Go back about 3 or 4 pages and have a gander

I have both 'pet' and breeding stock
The reaction and interaction of both is very different in my opinion
Just as simple example I would never expect any of my pet reptiles to even hint at a threat display no matter who is handling them
But I definitely cannot say the same about the breeding stock that are seldom handled
So if their natural instinct is flee or fight and this has changed in the pet ones
Surely other things may have changed as well???

So you're telling me that ALL of your breeding stock will not tolerate any handling due to them being seldom handled? I find this very hard to believe...

If it is just a select few who don't tolerate it then that also has nothing to do with "emotion" what so ever and is just the individual snake itself... Like I said, I have some that I interact with and others I don't, some of either 'category' have a go at me every now and then, but at the end of the day that's just the way they are..

 

[longqi]

Thats even more black and white than people are making this debate. It is not either no emotion or love them to bits there is broad middle ground.

How do you know that human emotion is not a complex reaction of animal instinct interpreted by ourselves as emotion and thus meaning that instincts and emotions are at least mostly synonymous?
Also I would like to point out that "simply a complex" is a highly confusing phrase.

Absolutely agree about a huge middle ground

 

[fugawi]

Whoa....... Sam, I said some people, not directed at you in particular, a generalised comment.

 

[longqi]

So you're telling me that ALL of your breeding stock will not tolerate any handling due to them being seldom handled? I find this very hard to believe...

If it is just a select few who don't tolerate it then that also has nothing to do with "emotion" what so ever and is just the individual snake itself... Like I said, I have some that I interact with and others I don't, some of either 'category' have a go at me every now and then, but at the end of the day that's just the way they are..

Also no offence to redlittlejim, but he has only joined this year and probably has 1 or 2 reptiles, I don't see how any of his 'experiments' could be conclusive...

Most of my breeding stock will tolerate handling
But there are some who definitely dont respond well to handling
While you expect to get tagged occasionally by some of your snakes from either category; I would be shocked if any of my pet ones went into any form of threat display
I am NOT saying this is evidence of emotional response

Conclusive evidence is very hard hard to find and even his tests will never be considered conclusive by scientists
Regardless of how many reptiles he has or his level unknown of experience he is trying something different and I applaud him for that

 

[fugawi]

Longqi.....Wild responses would be the control.

I was just thinking, we, as humans, usually sense emotions through facial expression amid other signs. I wonder if we don't assign emotions to reptiles due to the lack of facial expressions. Is it just that we don't recognise the signs and that reptiles show different signs, that they can recognise and we don't?

 

[SamNabz]

Most of my breeding stock will tolerate handling
But there are some who definitely dont respond well to handling
While you expect to get tagged occasionally by some of your snakes from either category; I would be shocked if any of my pet ones went into any form of threat display
I am NOT saying this is evidence of emotional response

Conclusive evidence is very hard hard to find and even his tests will never be considered conclusive by scientists
Regardless of how many reptiles he has or his level unknown of experience he is trying something different and I applaud him for that

Maybe conclusive evidence is very hard to find because there is an extreme lack of emotion etc. in reptiles?

There has been a lot of success with other animals; reptiles have been around a very long time and for there to still be no evidence of them having an emotional connection etc. then why don't we just accept that as the result?..

Also I am sure that lab tests would have used WC and CB stock as well as tried most if not all the possible scenarios mentioned on here (e.g. raised from the egg, constant interaction etc.). Fair enough they are just studies to them at the end of the day but that is the length they go to with other animals or 'projects' when conducting these studies...

 

[longqi]

Fugawi

OK Got it now and understand what you meant

Samnabz
We could just accept what scientists say?
Or we could question their findings so far because of the seemingly very limited number of reported tests done?
We could accept that all testing was exactly the same?
Or we could suggest that maybe other tests may give different answers?