Why why why!!!!!!
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Ever heard of Neuro? If that doesn't have a detrimental effect on the animal I'm yet to see a point of view which expresses it as a benefit to the animal, care to elaborate?
Again this comes down to ethics, even though the animals may be the same genetically they all have their endemic ranges with few overlapping. I see it as nothing more than justifying what they do.
Firstly you said that the breeding of morphs have nothing to do with wild populations, your next response clearly shows a scenario which has an enormous impact of it, where do you actually stand on this or what if your argument because I find it hard to rebut a point when someone has contradicted themselves regarding wild/ captive instances.
Most people would be mortified if that was to happen but as I stated in my earlier post, some are in the hobby for ego inflation while others are in it to have some type of ethical view on how the animals evolved themselves over millions of years which would also include their endemic regions. Believe it or not even Morelia's mere aesthetic appearance is an ode to their evolution and shouldn't be cut down to the "all the same thing" simply to make someone (who has not contributed a single iota of good to the hobby) make themselves feel special in the eyes of their underling who believe it or not have the same ethical view on Australia's fauna.
What do morph breeders contribute? The way I understand it is the science was around long before people decided it was a good idea to cross sub species, they definitely aren't contributing any knowledge on wild specimens or their endemism, captive care of the species regularly kept have been clearly defined for decades so please elaborate on what you personally feel they are "unlocking" in the hobby? If you are talking about the contribution of genetic data it's something which has been covered in literally thousands of books regarding genetics and was put in to practice many years ago in avian sectors and aquaculture, so again I'm not sure what you refer to when you speak of this great contribution they hand over to herpetology.
I'm not saying people have to respect the same people who I respect, my point was that people who have scientifically classified species and actually handed over something of value regarding herpetology are overshadowed by self proclaimed genetic geniuses because they have figured of the mystical art of punnet squares. I bet if you were to take a survey of these newer people to the hobby who Glenn Storr was they wouldn't have a clue but could pick out "awesome morphs". This in itself is indicative of where the hobby is today.
Aren't you doing exactly what you are accusing myself and others like me of doing? Merely expressing an opinion, if you don't like that opinion you really don't have to read it. I didn't address my post to you or make any inclination that it's content was written purely to demonize or provoke a response from you so again I find that you have again contradicted yourself regarding your own standpoints and I find it almost impossible to rebut your context because it keeps changing to suit your argument.
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saximus
Almost Legendary
I don't know of any albinos or hypos that have neuro. I suppose it is a fair point against Jags but I don't keep any so I can't comment on how it actually affects their wellbeing.
My point there was possibly based on the wrong assumption that you were like most morph haters and this was the reason you are against crossing. That is the only scenario that I can think of for a pet to have any impact that people should worry about. Otherwise why should people care what someone else is keeping in an enclosure inside their own house?
They contribute to knowledge about morphs and to increasing interest in the pet side of the hobby. They're not bringing anything new scientifically but to me that is enough.
I don't think I am. I just want to see everyone getting along and for people to be able to follow whatever part of the hobby interests them without being told they aren't allowed to ask questions because it is ethically wrong to some people.
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andynic07
Very Well-Known Member
I think people are lumping morph breeding and sub species crossing and jags into one. I think they are three separate things and yes I know jag is a morph but I consider it different to axanthics for example because it comes with a possible neuro issue. I also know that some people will do a combination of each of these and sometimes all three but still think they can be considered different and discussed separately. I don't really see breeders of any of these as hurting the hobby and as far as the hobby is concerned I think they contribute to it because they bring in new people to the hobby which makes the price of equipment more affordable and accessible. The one thing that I would like to see by all involved is responsible breeding.
paultheo
Active Member
+1 on that +1 regarding the silly questions part, most of my knowledge came from hands on experience or asking established breeders and keepers.
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bdav70
Guest
i've seen some (i hate to say it) ugly snakes advertised on this forum with bad photos and vague info. these breeders are among us
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Cold-B-Hearts
Guest
what makes a snake ugly exactly?
RedFox
Very Well-Known Member
The same as what makes a snake beautiful... personal opinion/taste.
C
Cold-B-Hearts
Guest
beauty is different in everybodys eyes i agree
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bdav70
Guest
exactly
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Bluetongue1
Guest
To clarify, a morph is a particular form. Morphs can be obtained in different ways. These include: An unusual individual selected in the wild; An unusual individual selected from a clutch produced in captivity; Artifical selection of specific phenotypes as breeding stock; In-breeding; Cross-breeding; Hybridisation; Or a combination of these processes, as happens with line-breeding. Morp means a morphologically distinct form. It may be the result of a particular allele or allele at one gene locus, or the alleles present at two gene loci or the overall effect of many gene loci. Some morphs result from interruption of the normal effects of genes (and are therefore not genetically reproducible).
The issue of inter-specific or even inter-generic crosses raises ethical questions. A donkey crossed with a horse produces a mule, which has highly desirable characteristics for working on farms. As the animals are sterile, there is little objection to their production and use. The real issues arise with animals that may be sterile but have no practical applications and those animals that produce fertile hybrids. The issues are both ethical and practical.
As we have seen, the ethical issues are not at all clear cut and lack consistency across the animal kingdom. For example, we don't seem to have people up in arms at the crossing of Red Siskin Finches with domestic Canaries to produce Red Factor Canaries. Yet the crossing of lions and tigers sparks outrage in some and acceptance in others. So I shall leave the discussion of ethics to you guys.
There are a number of practical issue with hybidising pythons, be it at the existing sub-species level (ignorning the unpublished thesis for the moment) or species level. Firstly it presents a management issue for authorities in terms of identification and record keeping (possibly sometimes many here don't mind). An issue that we have seen here is "I bought this as 'X' but it doesn't look like the pictures of 'X'. What the unwitting buyer has often procured is a snake with mixed origins yet they were led to believe it was a pure strain. It is apparent that some dealers will call there mixed hybrid snakes whatever an ignorant buyer is after. Many home breeders seem guilty of this.. whatever it takes to move it on and get the cash. And it is can be innocently self perputating, where people breed what they bought and pass on the offspring as being what they were told the parents were.
A major concern for conservation is genetic pollution. It can occur with pure strains but there is a higher potential with hybrid snakes. When producing hybrids there is often a marked degree of variation within any clutch. Some of the snakes will no doubt be seen as desirable but the rest may not be so. Usually you don't get to see the permanent marking until the snake is past the juvenile stage. It is then that most culling is likely to occur. If such animals are released rather than killed it may lead to genetic pollution of local populations.
Just to clarify how (hope you enjoy, Saximus)...
I f you release one snake and it breeds with a local snake, half of the gene allels it carries are not passed on i.e. lost. Where an offspring from this mating breeds, it is odds on the breeding partner will not be related. So half of its genes will not be passed on. In two generations we have only 25% of the genes from the hybrid animal remaining. Add another two generations and that figure becomes 6.25%. However, if you released say 10 snakes or more, then the probability of hybrid snakes or those of hybrid origin mating with each other is such that the genes could be perpetuated. Other than for the first breeding the percentages are averages and may vary due to the effects of crossing-over and independant assortment of chromatids in the production of gametes.
Blue
The issue of inter-specific or even inter-generic crosses raises ethical questions. A donkey crossed with a horse produces a mule, which has highly desirable characteristics for working on farms. As the animals are sterile, there is little objection to their production and use. The real issues arise with animals that may be sterile but have no practical applications and those animals that produce fertile hybrids. The issues are both ethical and practical.
As we have seen, the ethical issues are not at all clear cut and lack consistency across the animal kingdom. For example, we don't seem to have people up in arms at the crossing of Red Siskin Finches with domestic Canaries to produce Red Factor Canaries. Yet the crossing of lions and tigers sparks outrage in some and acceptance in others. So I shall leave the discussion of ethics to you guys.
There are a number of practical issue with hybidising pythons, be it at the existing sub-species level (ignorning the unpublished thesis for the moment) or species level. Firstly it presents a management issue for authorities in terms of identification and record keeping (possibly sometimes many here don't mind). An issue that we have seen here is "I bought this as 'X' but it doesn't look like the pictures of 'X'. What the unwitting buyer has often procured is a snake with mixed origins yet they were led to believe it was a pure strain. It is apparent that some dealers will call there mixed hybrid snakes whatever an ignorant buyer is after. Many home breeders seem guilty of this.. whatever it takes to move it on and get the cash. And it is can be innocently self perputating, where people breed what they bought and pass on the offspring as being what they were told the parents were.
A major concern for conservation is genetic pollution. It can occur with pure strains but there is a higher potential with hybrid snakes. When producing hybrids there is often a marked degree of variation within any clutch. Some of the snakes will no doubt be seen as desirable but the rest may not be so. Usually you don't get to see the permanent marking until the snake is past the juvenile stage. It is then that most culling is likely to occur. If such animals are released rather than killed it may lead to genetic pollution of local populations.
Just to clarify how (hope you enjoy, Saximus)...
I f you release one snake and it breeds with a local snake, half of the gene allels it carries are not passed on i.e. lost. Where an offspring from this mating breeds, it is odds on the breeding partner will not be related. So half of its genes will not be passed on. In two generations we have only 25% of the genes from the hybrid animal remaining. Add another two generations and that figure becomes 6.25%. However, if you released say 10 snakes or more, then the probability of hybrid snakes or those of hybrid origin mating with each other is such that the genes could be perpetuated. Other than for the first breeding the percentages are averages and may vary due to the effects of crossing-over and independant assortment of chromatids in the production of gametes.
Blue
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Bluetongue1
Guest
I know we tend to hammer an individual who has purchased a snake and then asks basic husbandry questions. We tell them they should have done their reseaarch first. I have two issues with this.
Firstly, who here has trawled the net for specific information on the keeping of a specific species. You have information from who knows how many pet shops, from pets A to Z pages, from Vets who seem more interested in telling you all the things that can go wrong, from private individuals who vary from highly competent to "off with the fairies", and a few other sources. Then you have your reptile forums. Try typing in "Bearded Dragon care" in the search engine here - 365 threads. Know try reading through one or three that sound relevant. Remember to bear in mind we are talking about someone who has no background to discern useful information from misleading rubbish. These individuals need a lot more guidance than simply being told to do their research. It is a bit like a teacher telling a school kid to hop on the net and learn instead of actually assisting them to learn.
The second issue is more basic. I personally believe it is the responsibility of the seller to ensure, as best they can, that anyone buying an animal is cognisant of its requirements and how they may be best met. There are a number of excellent cheap publications that could be included as part of the sale. You have half a dozen species specific care booklets by Darren Green and others and John Weigel's book, priced between $15 and $20 (except for one which is $25). Sound information sufficient to get the novice keeper up and running and enjoying their charges. The cost should be incorporated in the sale of a snake and if the buyer is already competent then they can decline the book and may be get a $5 discount - not suffient for novices to try trying to save money and decline the book. Those sellers that maintain contact with their clients and assist them where they can are the ideal. All we can do is sing their praises and hope word of mouth carries newbies their way.
My legs are cramping a bit... must have been standing on this soap box too long.
Blue
Firstly, who here has trawled the net for specific information on the keeping of a specific species. You have information from who knows how many pet shops, from pets A to Z pages, from Vets who seem more interested in telling you all the things that can go wrong, from private individuals who vary from highly competent to "off with the fairies", and a few other sources. Then you have your reptile forums. Try typing in "Bearded Dragon care" in the search engine here - 365 threads. Know try reading through one or three that sound relevant. Remember to bear in mind we are talking about someone who has no background to discern useful information from misleading rubbish. These individuals need a lot more guidance than simply being told to do their research. It is a bit like a teacher telling a school kid to hop on the net and learn instead of actually assisting them to learn.
The second issue is more basic. I personally believe it is the responsibility of the seller to ensure, as best they can, that anyone buying an animal is cognisant of its requirements and how they may be best met. There are a number of excellent cheap publications that could be included as part of the sale. You have half a dozen species specific care booklets by Darren Green and others and John Weigel's book, priced between $15 and $20 (except for one which is $25). Sound information sufficient to get the novice keeper up and running and enjoying their charges. The cost should be incorporated in the sale of a snake and if the buyer is already competent then they can decline the book and may be get a $5 discount - not suffient for novices to try trying to save money and decline the book. Those sellers that maintain contact with their clients and assist them where they can are the ideal. All we can do is sing their praises and hope word of mouth carries newbies their way.
My legs are cramping a bit... must have been standing on this soap box too long.
Blue
Sorry but I strongly disagree with what you are saying.
There are entire websites and forum dedicated to the more commonly kept reptile species which are 100% free to utilize. To use your own example "bearded dragon care" has been discussed so in depth that most of these sites/forums will have complete lists of foods which can be eaten by bearded dragons and even at which regularity to feed them based on what the foods do and contain.
On these same resources there are literally hundreds of threads which cover everything from housing, husbandry,breeding to in-depth diagrams of lighting frequencies etc.
Where exactly do we draw the line? If they can't be bothered to spend a few hours trawling through these free resources to learn at least the basic needs of their animals they shouldn't be keeping them quite simply. The reason they ask so many questions is because it's easier for them to have the information they need handed to them on a silver platter which means getting their bearded dragon quicker without even an iota of effort put in to the process.
And it's nothing like a teacher telling their students to do their own research, we aren't paid to sit here and answer the same repetitive questions which are asked on a weekly basis. They aren't our proteges or children nor are the more experienced bound by some ethical force to sit there and spoon feed them easily accessible information.
If you think adding a book which covers husbandry in the sale of all reptiles is a good idea then go for gold my friend, just don't expect that sentiment to catch on considering people sell mainly to move excess stock on. The care of the animal is the buyers responsibility once it leaves the sellers possession and the books should have been purchased by the buyer well before even entertaining the idea of buying a reptile. It's kind of like saying someone should be able to drive a car without any previous knowledge or experience as long as it comes with a detailed manual on how to drive safely at the time of sale.
Should we also pop around a few times a week and change the water and feed and clean their new additions?
Don't get me wrong I am always willing to help out a buyer and even give a follow up service should the need arise, I will also answer questions online regarding the husbandry of species which don't have much in the way of information but I won't spoon feed someone only to take the burden of research off of them only to fast track them to getting their reptile.
A little initiative and common sense never hurt anybody.
T
Trimeresurus
Guest
I agree with Tesla.
Moreliavridis
Well-Known Member
That is the whole idea of a forum is for people to ask question. I'd rather see a thread asking certain question about husbandry and the like instead of what should I name my beardy.
If you type in the search engine beardy you get bombarded with mainly useless threads.
I do agree some people should put a little more effort into the research side of things. But someone who has never kept a reptile might not know where to start or what books/Internet pages are correct.
If you type in the search engine beardy you get bombarded with mainly useless threads.
I do agree some people should put a little more effort into the research side of things. But someone who has never kept a reptile might not know where to start or what books/Internet pages are correct.
Pythons Rule
Very Well-Known Member
the ones I cant get over what people over seas are doing to the Morelia's and the bhp's that cross is bloody wrong in every way, and that carpet x ball python.....why do people feel the need to play god with stuff that would never ever exist in the wild. so is the carpet x bhp or woma going to be carnivorous or able to eat venomous reptiles too or other reptiles? are they going to lay humungous eggs? would it cause more egg bound mothers? and why would you call it an Australian Dream when its classed as an abomination??? think he needs to re name this animal.
S
Snowman
Guest
So many busy bodies worrying about what other people are doing. Glad I'm not your neighbor.
Barrett
Well-Known Member
Though, isn't that just human nature; trying to do things as quickly as possible. Not saying that in this case I agree with that notion, though, it's just how a lot of people get things done.
Red-Ink
Very Well-Known Member
We're not busy bodies... we're doing it for the hobby... wait or is it for conservation, yeah that's it.... no wait I know, it's definitely for the children. Somedody has to think of the children.
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