"With little or no regard for the animal or the hobby”
What effect does it have on the animals? If they are kept in a healthy environment with heat, food and water, I can’t see a problem.
What effect does it have on the hobby? Purists have been complaining about hybrids and morphs for years and yet it is still possible to obtain pure, locality animals if that is your thing.
“the purists are the ones breeding the precursor needed for their "genetic work".”
As Dmnted pointed out, from a DNA stand-point, they are inseparable. So if it’s a Carpet and it looks like a Jungle, it’s a Jungle. A genetic morph doesn’t change depending on the locality of the great-grandfather of its host.
There are lots of people who have an interest in genetics, myself included. What exactly is your point?”
Maybe I should have been more specific. My point was that people have an interest in genetics from the point of morphs and the potential phenotypes that can be produced by a particular combination of genotypes.
“It seems to me that you think as long as the final goal is reached the means and the ethical consequences become irrelevant as long as you can predict the final outcome.”
It’s not that I think the ethical consequences are irrelevant. I think there are no special consequences. If a “pure” M.s.variegata escapes in Sydney, it would have exactly the same consequence as a mixed M.s.ssp. Maybe we should really be asking about what the ethical consequences of keeping animals in a box are first. If an animal is kept in clean, healthy conditions, what exactly are the consequences on that particular animal from having a combination of locality parents?
“Some of us have differing view on what makes a herpetologist and more to the point what makes a herpetologist worthy of praising”
You are absolutely correct that there are differing views and that there are at least two different camps on this issue. The only problem is that I only ever see one camp bashing the other on here and it’s pretty tiresome to read when you are interested in learning about the potential of these things and have to wade through so much excrement to get anywhere. I personally respect everyone who contributes to the care of wildlife and to the knowledge base for the hobby. What I don’t respect are people who seem to think their opinion is all that matters. Why should everyone else only be allowed to respect the people you consider worthy?
The hobby has and will continue to evolve. I think it would be much more interesting and enjoyable if everyone could stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and stick to whatever part of it holds interest for them. If you want a pure, line bred animal, buy from a breeder who only deals with pure, line bred animals. If you don’t, then go elsewhere. There is room for everyone, so why attack people for taking part in a side of the hobby that you don’t happen to like?
I don't know of any albinos or hypos that have neuro. I suppose it is a fair point against Jags but I don't keep any so I can't comment on how it actually affects their wellbeing.Ever heard of Neuro? If that doesn't have a detrimental effect on the animal I'm yet to see a point of view which expresses it as a benefit to the animal, care to elaborate?
My point there was possibly based on the wrong assumption that you were like most morph haters and this was the reason you are against crossing. That is the only scenario that I can think of for a pet to have any impact that people should worry about. Otherwise why should people care what someone else is keeping in an enclosure inside their own house?Firstly you said that the breeding of morphs have nothing to do with wild populations, your next response clearly shows a scenario which has an enormous impact of it, where do you actually stand on this or what if your argument because I find it hard to rebut a point when someone has contradicted themselves regarding wild/ captive instances.
What do morph breeders contribute? The way I understand it is the science was around long before people decided it was a good idea to cross sub species, they definitely aren't contributing any knowledge on wild specimens or their endemism, captive care of the species regularly kept have been clearly defined for decades so please elaborate on what you personally feel they are "unlocking" in the hobby? If you are talking about the contribution of genetic data it's something which has been covered in literally thousands of books regarding genetics and was put in to practice many years ago in avian sectors and aquaculture, so again I'm not sure what you refer to when you speak of this great contribution they hand over to herpetology.
Aren't you doing exactly what you are accusing myself and others like me of doing? Merely expressing an opinion, if you don't like that opinion you really don't have to read it. I didn't address my post to you or make any inclination that it's content was written purely to demonize or provoke a response from you so again I find that you have again contradicted yourself regarding your own standpoints and I find it almost impossible to rebut your context because it keeps changing to suit your argument.
+1 on that +1 regarding the silly questions part, most of my knowledge came from hands on experience or asking established breeders and keepers.Im with you on this one, they're is no stupid questions only stupid answers. How are these "uneducated" people going to get educated without asking questions?
I know the internet has taught me over 50% of what i know about reptiles.
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+1
what makes a snake ugly exactly?i've seen some (i hate to say it) ugly snakes advertised on this forum with bad photos and vague info. these breeders are among us
what makes a snake ugly exactly?
beauty is different in everybodys eyes i agreeThe same as what makes a snake beautiful... personal opinion/taste.
The same as what makes a snake beautiful... personal opinion/taste.
I know we tend to hammer an individual who has purchased a snake and then asks basic husbandry questions. We tell them they should have done their reseaarch first. I have two issues with this.
Firstly, who here has trawled the net for specific information on the keeping of a specific species. You have information from who knows how many pet shops, from pets A to Z pages, from Vets who seem more interested in telling you all the things that can go wrong, from private individuals who vary from highly competent to "off with the fairies", and a few other sources. Then you have your reptile forums. Try typing in "Bearded Dragon care" in the search engine here - 365 threads. Know try reading through one or three that sound relevant. Remember to bear in mind we are talking about someone who has no background to discern useful information from misleading rubbish. These individuals need a lot more guidance than simply being told to do their research. It is a bit like a teacher telling a school kid to hop on the net and learn instead of actually assisting them to learn.
The second issue is more basic. I personally believe it is the responsibility of the seller to ensure, as best they can, that anyone buying an animal is cognisant of its requirements and how they may be best met. There are a number of excellent cheap publications that could be included as part of the sale. You have half a dozen species specific care booklets by Darren Green and others and John Weigel's book, priced between $15 and $20 (except for one which is $25). Sound information sufficient to get the novice keeper up and running and enjoying their charges. The cost should be incorporated in the sale of a snake and if the buyer is already competent then they can decline the book and may be get a $5 discount - not suffient for novices to try trying to save money and decline the book. Those sellers that maintain contact with their clients and assist them where they can are the ideal. All we can do is sing their praises and hope word of mouth carries newbies their way.
Blue
The reason they ask so many questions is because it's easier for them to have the information they need handed to them on a silver platter which means getting their bearded dragon quicker without even an iota of effort put in to the process.
So many busy bodies worrying about what other people are doing. Glad I'm not your neighbor.
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