DECC minimum enclosure size discussion.

[Jungletrans]

l see a lot of racks + tubs for sale cheap in NSW soon .

 

[Chimera]

l see a lot of racks + tubs for sale cheap in NSW soon .

Not if snitchy is right about the committee. If he is I certainly feel a lot more comfortable having discussed this personally with a few of them.

 

[Colin]

but if they do introduce a law that makes u keep all your animals in massive enclosures, it will just kill the hobby. big breeders would go out of business, and most hobbyists would have to sell most of their collection.

If the DECC is being influenced by any other lobby groups like the animal liberationists.. then maybe thats exactly what these people want to happen.. It would all start to make sense then.. .

we've seen snitchy's post with the people who are on the committe for the reptile keepers. But what I would really like to know is exactly who the DECC is getting its information and suggestions from besides our group? They must have other groups they are listening to besides the reptile keepers commitee surely? who are they?

I think this is the real question that needs to be answered and out in the open. Can anyone that actually knows whats going on comment on this please?

In politics governments and government departments usually do what they think will win them more votes, more voter support, more lobbyist group donations etc.. Im hoping this scenario is totally wrong and Im just paranoid and cynical. but the possibility does worry and concern me.

 

[-Matt-]

If you remember at one of the last meetings,Jamie did mention it,and will keep us informed as much as he can.Those dimensions for a Lacie Rams dont seem to bad,compared to their size,i wouldve thought the measurements for a Lacie to be alot bigger than that..

Thank you Mark, I must have missed that. I guess we will find out more at next weeks meeting.

From what has been mentioned recently regarding the enclosure sizes, eg. lacies etc. these sizes dont seem to bad at all and are not in any way excessive.

 

[Slateman]

If the DECC is being influenced by any other lobby groups like the animal liberationists.. then maybe thats exactly what these people want to happen.. It would all start to make sense then.. .

we've seen snitchy's post with the people who are on the committe for the reptile keepers. But what I would really like to know is exactly who the DECC is getting its information and suggestions from besides our group? They must have other groups they are listening to besides the reptile keepers commitee surely? who are they?

I think this is the real question that needs to be answered and out in the open. Can anyone that actually knows whats going on comment on this please?

In politics governments and government departments usually do what they think will win them more votes, more voter support, more lobbyist group donations etc.. Im hoping this scenario is totally wrong and Im just paranoid and cynical. but the possibility does worry and concern me.

Exactly my concern.

 

[FAY]

I didn't want to say anything as I may be wrong..........please correct me if I am.

This is just a draft,where these "draft" cages came from I am not sure, but I am pretty sure that the cages sizes haven't even been 'nutted' out between the two said parties as yet.
There is no way I am going to freak out about it until I have reason to. JMO

 

[wokka]

Although its is referred to as a draft I think a discussion paper is a better discription. They have to start somewhere and I am sure DECC would admit their draft is not perfect. From what I hear as they visit each lot of "experts" the draft is being red lined and modified. As I understand DECC will go public in July with a far more practical draft seeking public comment.

 

[-Matt-]

join a herp society, go to a meeting, you might find out some of the info yo are after.

i agree the proposed enclosure sizes are rediculous.
heaven forbid you own a few lacies, thier enclosure will have to be bigger than your house

I am involved with a herp society as Im sure a lot of the other people posting on here also are that are asking the exact same questions??

I do know that the enclosure sizes arent going to be rediculous though, DECC arent going to expect people to be keeping scrubbies and lacies etc in enclosures the size of houses...they are not that silly.

From what Wokka has said I guess the rumors will get laid to rest when the public draft is released in july.

 

[Colin]

I am involved with a herp society as Im sure a lot of the other people posting on here also are that are asking the exact same questions??

I do know that the enclosure sizes arent going to be rediculous though, DECC arent going to expect people to be keeping scrubbies and lacies etc in enclosures the size of houses...they are not that silly.

From what Wokka has said I guess the rumors will get laid to rest when the public draft is released in july.

well Im glad you have the inside information matt and know the enclosure sizes aren't going to be ridiculous :lol: even though in the actual draft there are problems in my opinion. Have you actually read the draft or seen a copy?

Because the sizes and generalisations for a standard minimum compulsory sizes and the categorys for medium pythons being 4000cm2 (GTP's, RSP and womas) and large pythons being 8000cm2 (BHP's, waters, Eastern carpets, Carpet / Diamond) which dont take into consideration locality size differences etc of the morelia species, many of which are no bigger than any of the three "medium pythons" need a lot of work in my opinion.

there's a big difference between a recomended guideline and a specific compulsory minimum standard that has to be met no matter what or else your in breach of your licence.

especially if this minimum compulsory size is too big for this category (ie: minimum compulsory standard) and probably bigger than a large percentage of experienced keepers and breeders having been successfully using without problems for years eg. 3 foot x 2 foot (floor area) x 2 foot high is a basic standard size enclosure used by many people. Its 90cm x 60cm floor area which is 5400cm2 and not the minimum standard for say jungle pythons (morelia spilota cheynei) which have been lumped in with large pythons yet a large percentage of jungle python locality forms eg: palmerstons and julattens are no bigger than the preceding category "medium pythons" that has half the compulsory floor size??

remember these are compulsory minimum standards and anything techically under these numbers is in breach of your licence. How can you lump a species such as jungles which have various locality animals that can vary several feet in length as adults with much larger species for a start? and there doesn't seem any provisions for individual variance in species. and thats just the first thing I noticed. what happens if you need to replace 10, 20, 30, 50 maybe more enclosures that you may have kept and bred your reptiles successfully for years because some official says your (for example) 50cm2 short of what they may demand as the minimum standard?

maybe you need to get a copy of this 23 page plus draft for yourself to read rather than relying on what other people tell you.

 

[TWENTY B]

therehas been a fairly large amount of discussion on this subject within my herp society..
if your society has not raised the subject to it's members at a meeting, maybe you should..

from what i've herd the proposed enclosure sizes are rediculous
and the required temps gradients etc..
cycles, and various otherthings

 

[-Matt-]

I would love to be able to read this draft...not all of us are that priveleged. Colin I was just being general and assumed that they wouldnt go as rediculous as house size enclosures, and there are too many theories being thrown around...some say huge some say very reasonable...you dont know who to believe.
From now on I think it would be smart to just keep my mouth shut.

 

[Jason]

therehas been a fairly large amount of discussion on this subject within my herp society..
from what i've herd the proposed enclosure sizes are rediculous
and the required temps gradients etc..
cycles, and various otherthings

can i ask who told you that it was rediculous? would it be a member of the comity? possibly they are in a position where they dont comply cause the truth of it is that the sizes arent that bad and with alittle work they'll be good. as wokka said a pair of antaresia can be kept in 40 x 50 cm... whats 'rediculous' about this?
i had also heard from a few people that the sizes etc were rediculous. i then heard that a couple of the comity may have been telling people wrong sizes to make more people opose the idea.... possibly your society has one of these people that were twisting the truth. too many 'truths' in this debate. iv heard multiple stories and i know which one im going with.
i guess only time will tell. just wait and see the drafts i guess... if we get to see them.

 

[Colin]

From now on I think it would be smart to just keep my mouth shut.

:lol: I wish I could do that myself mate :lol:

 

[Crystal..Discus]

Too many breeders/keepers are going to put up a fight, and like anything else that gets forced on the masses, there'll be a revolt and the DECC will get flooded with hatemail and such. I don't understand WHY they have to go poking their noses into things. Guidelines are reasonable - and I'd refer to them when keeping my animals. But tell someone - "No, you can't do that!" and they'll do it just to annoy you.

 

[borntobnude]

It is an impressive list of herp names and brains that snitchy has given us . A group of reptile lovers and enthusiasts who ,im sure , would love nothing more than to see the hobby thrive. The only problem i have is that there are no apparent negative names on the list .Yes im "sure" that some silly recomendations are going to be made but if the same vigour that this forum is putting in now is chaneled purposely we should come out fairly happy [ sounds good and positive eh ] ok lets wait and see!

 

[TWENTY B]

can i ask who told you that it was rediculous? would it be a member of the comity? possibly they are in a position where they dont comply cause the truth of it is that the sizes arent that bad and with alittle work they'll be good. as wokka said a pair of antaresia can be kept in 40 x 50 cm... whats 'rediculous' about this?
i had also heard from a few people that the sizes etc were rediculous. i then heard that a couple of the comity may have been telling people wrong sizes to make more people opose the idea.... possibly your society has one of these people that were twisting the truth. too many 'truths' in this debate. iv heard multiple stories and i know which one im going with.
i guess only time will tell. just wait and see the drafts i guess... if we get to see them.

40x50 is fair, i agree,
i think it is in reference to what they deam large pythons
as wel as monitors.

 

[Jason]

40x50 is fair, i agree,
i think it is in reference to what they deam large pythons
as wel as monitors.

from what i hear:
large monitores ie lacies, etc require somthing like 4 or 5 square metres.
coastals, diamonds, bredli, bhps etc are large and require about 4x2 feet.

 

[TWENTY B]

i'll find out more tomorrow.

 

[MissHiss]

Jason, what Wokka actually said on page 15, was that 2 antaresia can be kept in a 2000cm2 or 40cm x 50cm enclosure. typo or not, which one is it? work it out, that's 20 square mtrs. I apologise Wokka i was taking the mickey out of you slightly with my previous posts we are just finding this enclosure area discussion quite interesting, & are looking forward to seeing the same regulations happen in QLD & all over the country better sooner than later.

 

[JasonL]

Overall, I think it is all pretty reasonable, there are some major problems with some of the groupings and husbandry issues that have been put as a blanket ruling that need to exclude some animals, but all and all it's not bad at all.